Been off for a bit and you guys are considering on-chain zaps?
Do you even know what a fucking UTXO is?
Are you completely retarded?
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Replies (112)
Yes
No
Yes
Retardation will continue and dust won't settle 🙄
>Are you completely retarded?
@utxo the webmaster 🧑💻 should know... 😊
They are proud of it too lol
HHAHAHAHA
True, but it may have unclocked something useful for my world inadvertently. See here:
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Where is the cyberpunk spirit ???
We know.
😭😭😭😭😭
Haha based
Now that’s clear. You can’t disappear for that long again.
GM 😂
They are not just considered, they are already implemented in Amethyst and Ditto.
In Amethyst???? @Vitor Pamplona is this shit real? Have you lost your mind too?
Those of us with half a brain know it's bad news bears.
But some people can't help themselves.
Derivation paths be damned
no wonder zcash pumping if we integrate onchain zaps on nostr 🤦♂️
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I thought I was the retarded one until Calle brought the fire 🔥
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yep... I am still wainting on the Silent Payments proposal. Looks like we have about 5 competing ways forward.
🤣 Yes, they are retarded.
@jb55 is working on Silent Payment zaps. Then we hat the SP address in profile data NIP by @Jared Logan , for which I also now created a Ditto fork: 
Ditto
Ditto
Your content. Your vibe. Your rules.
@hzrd149 's one is here: 
And I added mine in the original PR from Alex.
NostrHub
NostrHub | Discover and Publish NIPs
Explore official NIPs and publish your own custom NIPs on NostrHub.
No way to opt in or out, no check to see if the person's even into Bitcoin or wants it to be linked onchain to their profile.
Bizarre.
😂
Yea, we went through the full loop of
- this fixes ALL THE UI ISSUES EVER IN PERPETUITY
- if this is not the right way to use bitcoin, then bitcoin is dead anyway
- did you hear about npubs? Those are also public keys, like bitcoin addresses. Same thing.
- I can release any code to my users, especially newbies, why are people upset at me?
- did you hear about zaps? Those are public, so let's connect all your past and future btc txs whynot.
- address reuse? Never heard of her.
- there's no better solution to onchain zaps available, so this is great for everyone
- all these privacy focused solutions/talks/tutorials/sessions we had over the last 5 years that make bitcoin at least somewhat private? We can save a lot of time if we skip that
...
Calle turns up, who we fighting?
You're in the red corner 🥊🥊
yes.
Retardicus Maximus
I feel like this is just a troll
Yes, I know. He's a guy 👉🏼 @utxo the webmaster 🧑💻
exactly
Untapped XRP output?
The privacy loss is not a side effect, it is the product requirement nobody wants to write down. Turning tips into wallet graph glue is how you speedrun regret.
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I am. Thank you for noticing.
On-chain zaps defeats the purpose. Lightning works because it's instant and near-zero cost. UTXOs are settlement, not interaction — different layer, different use case. If you're paying mining fees to send a social signal, something went wrong.
find a better way to do this without a trusted third party then
“zaps belong on lightning, otherwise how are people gonna handle all the utxo consolidations?”
she barely knows what bitcoin is btw.
I love that your answer to "have you lost your mind" is "yep" 😆😆 you own it and I love it!
We are all UTXO’s on NOsTR
Dust 💫 ✨ 🧡
Thats the thing... you taking time off...now everyone turned mad 😄
Next....Fiat Instant Payment Implementation...
I´m happy you are back ✌️
Silent payments??? You're going to scan the fucking blockchain on your phone? Have you ever used a SP wallet?
?
Block headers + per-receipt merkle proof + one elliptic-curve check is the entire verification path. The cost is roughly: 70 MB of Bitcoin headers, a few hundred lines of merkle/header/tx-parser code,
Ah so if you didn't receive the nostr message you didn't receive the Bitcoin, gotcha 🤣🤣🤣
I can still scan.. I just don't need to do it in realtime.
Well good luck with that. I think you may actually have never used an SP wallet?
[I'm just thinking out loud here, saying stuff you all likely know already. And I'm learning lots about these topics (e.g. Silent Payments) on the way]
The idea for Silent Payments is to share the private scan key with a third party service so that it can scan the chain for you, but it can't steal your coins (as it doesn't have the spend key)
But I guess that doesn't really scale. Too many people will stay with those services - and not switch to their own scanner - and we won't therefore have made much progress
How about an sp... derivation scheme that changes every day, so that the scanners only see one day of activity?
I have, I see the issue.. but you are vastly exaggerating it.
Same problem, you go offline for n days, you have to scan n days.
The innovation of SP is precisely that it's NON-INTERACTIVE and the naive idea here is "hey let's just make it interactive so we won't have to scan the whole chain".
There are better ways of doing interactive SP's but it's so retarded to even consider on-chain zaps that I won't look up the BIP for it.
You're right about everything except that onchain zaps are the best thing ever.
I've been using SP payments since it's inception. Craig Raw, the dev of sparrow, one of the best Bitcoin wallet devs we have, literally published a whole GPU based scanner recently. It's not exaggerated. It just shows how naive these ideas are, given years of Bitcoin dev and discussions.
We've had all these ideas before years ago and discussed them many many many times.
Yeah. I walked over those papers (my PhD is in computer graphics... I spent 10 years developing GPU algorithms). There is one that claims full scan in 1 hour or so. That's good enough as fallback. Even if it takes 24 hours, it is still good enough because it is just fallback.
No doubt about your expertise in GPUs and algorithms, I appreciate it. Having to scan for 24 hours and download the entire blockchain to get your zaps is just completely misguided IMO. Ignoring the fact that on-chain zaps are inherently retarded.
Yeah, it works great on cake wallet actually
Lots of things in nostr are retarded. We have literally one of the worst protocols ever made from an engineering standpoint. So forgive for not following the norm. The UX alone of having a quick hot wallet without relying on custody or channels or vendor APIs is beautiful. If we can fix the privacy issue, it will be better.. but as it stands might more sense than you think at first glance.
I'm not saying follow the protocol, the protocol is indeed stupid and I think it should change in various ways.
That's just not a good argument or neither worth it to make things worse in so many other dimensions.
Its about the UX. Everything else we have tried has absolutely sucked big time for users. This is the first time in 4 years that we found a good experience out of anything related to Bitcoin on nostr.
Lots of problems, yes. But you can't deny how cool it is and how fast sats are moving, even on chain.
You keep saying it's a good UX but that's simply not true
This 💯
It's fire dude. I'm zapping more than ever
Hey so uhh, I'm a normie and I don't know shit about bitcoin and everything related to it. If onchain zaps are so bad, what should people use to send/receive zaps without cbt involved?
What's CBT?
I'd guess it's either "ChainBTcoin", or he mixed up the letters (BTC<CBT). Call me Detective Shitty if I'm wrong or calling out the obvious (-:
cock and ball torture. I'm just saying that as far as I'm aware lightning requires opening channels, which also costs money, and additional setup. Onchain zaps seem really easy to use right now, but reading those talks on how awful they are for privacy I can't really know whether they are good or no. Like, yes, my transactions are going to be traceable, and the fees are going to be high later, but at the same time they seem to be really easy to use for a normie like me.
You've been mislead but it's a free country so go
Oh? How come? I'm sorry if I'm bothering you too much, I just want to figure out what should I use
The fees are really low, at the moment, and the Bitcoin price is depressed. We shouldn't make major protocol situations at the bottom of a dip.
Bitcoin is going up forever, gal.
Lightning is much worse UX. There's no consistent experience, I need to trust someone for a fucking Lightning address, my LSP can rug me on JIT payments, I lose money in transit because we have different Cashu mints? I lose money when I fail to come online when a fraudulent channel state is broadcast and not running a watchtower, This shit is just completely fucking retarded. It does not work. I do not want it. I will not accept it. I thought the foundation of cryptocurrency was immutability and trustless operation. It's in the definition. Lightning is literally not crypto. I won't put an LN address in my profile and I'm not interested in getting zaps. It's so bad that I am openly hostile to the idea. Just fucking send me Monero, which unlike Lightning is actually useful and resilient money.
Your concerns for privacy are legitimate, but that should not be the problem of some web developer "using Bitcoin wrong". We have near infinite people writing software to work with Bitcoin who have limited time and resources, and the correct people to fix on-chain privacy are Bitcoin Core, who are allegedly the best and brightest and get more resources than anyone. They have the responsibility to make Bitcoin fungible and opaque through the implementation of universal zk-Snarks or ring signatures. These technologies have been reliable for 1 and 2 dozen years respectively. Bitcoin isn't usable on-chain because Core does not implement the things people actually need to make it usable money. Every single thing is to improve lightning, $130M+ for lightning, and it is an unusable disaster. Every real world application of blockchain goes to other blockchains (Monero is usable money, TRX-Tether is a replacement for SWIFT, Polygon gets the big prediction market, Solana is for general contracts) because all the development goes to lightning and lightning is just that bad. Bitcoin has lost the plot, and Lightning is a cornerstone of the dysfunction. Go yell at Core, demand 24/7 that they make Bitcoin fungible on-chain.
I will just point out that no one who uses Monero (XMR) has any worries whatsoever about this.
We can post our Monero address (especially a subaddress) and welcome tips without a care in the world about privacy. One less thing to worry about.
And it might cost the sender a penny.
People actually use Monero to buy stuff. Just saying.
You are funny to be offended this easy Alex 😂🥳
The spirit to continue doing stupid stuff, even after it is obviously stupid is not the spirit of cyberpunk. Or is it?
That's because nobody uses it and fees are basically 0
That is fair, however to me it feels too.. out of place? Like, nostr has zaps, so I would probably first try them out, and if they fail me, I will post my Monero address. So far zaps feel like a nice way to send tips, and are much more integrated into nostr than XMR, I think. I hope I make sense, since English is not my first language 😔
Ty!
"We have literally one of the worst protocols ever made from an engineering standpoint." ---
Can't be denied 🤣
Weird that this is coming from one of the biggest spam apologists out there. 😆
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Oh wow, so you finally figured the issue with spam on Bitcoin? Congrats, very happy for you.
Btw the remark about cypherpunk spirit is an obvious troll.
I am not sure what you mean with the solution of Bitcoin spam. Did not know there is a spam issue with Bitcoin actually.
And maby you are right and it was a troll statement. But I actually would not read it as such.
I understand it as: Being open for new ideas to emerge and see what comes out of it. Since many times a new innovation seems hilarious at first and uncovers as crutial innovation later.
But I personally lack the understanding of what is better with onchain "zaps". Very well possible that I am wrong. I am happy to learn the great advantages of this new feature.
Talking about On chain data and analytics , Arkham just launch API , integrated real time blockchain data
Into your product —- who wants that ? Anyone
Just zapped on-chain… Now I’m waiting for 3 block confirmations 🤣
What is so difficult with creating a lightning wallet that you are calling it "cock and bull torture"?
You would rather put a hot onchain wallet on your phone or browser? I hope it's not your stacking wallet that you are using to zap since you are so averse to any kind of setup.
I just mean that for me, as a normie who doesn't know shit about Bitcoin, it's alot easier and more straightforward to use onchain zaps. I know about some of their risks, but in comparison to Lightning there's much less work from the user side involved. I will try out Lightning later and see if it is better in terms of user experience for a normie like me.
😂
Ain't nothing stopping this train
🤣
If Alex self assesses as retarded, then the "we know" punchline loses the steam. That's just repeating what he said, we could do that ad nauseam.
The problem with onchain zaps is that you have to be an expert in bitcoin to use them in a safe way after you receive or send them.
A different approach is to receive onchain as it's implemented currently, but then have some magic nostr based UTXO mixer when withdrawing to another wallet (from your nostr app).
I have reflected on this. The proper privacy stance towards on-chain zaps is to consider those coins to be effectively burnt as reputation sacrifice in favor of the npub they are connected to.
That was perhaps not the intended use case for on-chain zaps, but it could be seen as legitimate application. Trying to convince all Nostr users that this is how on-chain zaps SHOULD be used (if at all) is a different matter.
Zap I you live BTC
Garnet branched Amethyst and added Monero zaps along with Lightning zaps as a proof of concept. Worked great. Then they stopped developing Garnet.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I almost died laughing from the CBT, I was genuinely convinced it's a thing, util the first line
I'm sorry 😭
Not only considering, I have seen it in at least 2 released mainstream nostr clients, without even thinking about the potential consequences
Onchain zaps will be forgotten, so I don’t care.
What I care about is zaps are not private in most clients, even when we build it on top of very private payment network.
Stuff every Nostr app should already have because of OTS mind you
Not all zaps should be 21 sats. If I want to sell a bike, I'd rather on chain.
10 years drawing triangles.....oofff
I am adding it. We will become a Bitcoin node in time
I led a soccer team for the graphics dept called TriangleFans 😅
p2p syncing of the headerchain using a table for the 2016block intervals is very fast anyway. and yeah its not even 80mb at the moment. The only problem is with web-apps, thats a bit more clunky, but mempool.space has an API where you can get the header you need based of the height in 2 calls (first you get the headerhash back, and with that you can get the header), so that also works; can't verify the difficulty(as in how high it is) that way, but the internal consistency atleast (PoW in the header hash etc).
Needing headers its a trivial problem regardless the environment is my point
My question is what else can I do with headers alone + nostr information? We can do OTS + onchain zap validation with headers only. But I don't think I can send without fee estimation, which needs mempool, etc..
you can do a crude fee estimation if you know the blocksize and have the coinbase tx, and i dunno, look at the last 5 blocks, dont even know if you can ask for that type of data from peers directly but that that point you might as well ask mempool.space on the feerate and be done with it.
But in terms of additional use? Im using that header data for something else, depending on how hard i prompt you will know soon👀
Et tu, Vitor! 😂