Tell me an argument against veganism and I'll rate it on a scale of 1 to 10.
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Replies (140)
Species that primarily eat plants have either multiple stomachs or much longer intestines to process them compared to humans. Also humans have 100 times more acidic stomach compared to monkeys and other vegetarian animal to perfectly break down meat.
So overall just eat species appropriate food...
I forgot to mention that this cow is incredibly old and has severe arthritis so much so that using cow to human voice technology, the cow said, “please, kill me. I’m in a tremendous amount of pain, all my milk has dried up many moons ago, and I would like to be put out of my misery. Also, it is my last wish that my body be cut up, cooked, ingested, and turned into several turns to be placed in a crater. Also, there’s a loaded gun to the right of that rock and a grill to the left”. 🤷♀️
Turds*
If animals weren't meant to be eaten then why are they made of food?
Plants are living things too
😂
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It's a true statement, but not a good reason. If anything it's more of a reason.
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Factory farms are hell. We're not doing them a favor by breeding them at unnatural rates.
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How are making animals go extinct a 1? Don't you love animals?
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It's a true statement but an old and tired argument
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Soy contains phytoestrogens in extremely small amounts. But so does chicken, which contains actual estrogen. In both cases it's so small you would have to consume an extremely large amount over a long period of time for it to even be a factor.
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Appreciate the sentiment but it ignores the vegan position that animals are sentient beings. They suffer from that choice.
Dis. 
Sorry, but 1
I simply crave meat. If I don’t have any In a given day I feel weak. An anecdote of course but still my personal reason.
Best protein profile comes from whey protein. 2nd best comes from eggs.
You would make a better stance on vegetarianism.
In my area the teenagers use the word vegan as a swear word.
It's used so much in this context that if you call my four year old a vegan he'll cry. 😂
Same goes for the word liberal.
Re: abhorence to murder/exploitation:
The quantity of plant matter & plant deaths far outstrips that of a diet including meat, eggs, etc. since plants are lower on the energy pyramid Only through an ignorance of the principle of conscioussness expressed in all things can one live in a delusion of veganism as morally superior behavior
Re nutrition:
including essential amino acids in meats are preferrable for muscle growth & repair
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You said a series of true statements, but you didn't make an explicit argument against veganism.
You are missing the point. Farm animals of all unique kinds only exist because they are food. These animals exist because the economic return of them.
There are millions of farm animals that would simply die or go extinct if the economic demand for them disappeared.
Vegans call for the end of animals as meat. Ok. Then what do you do with all the animals? Let them die?
Thanks for rating regardless!
Yea, just don’t go drinking 1.2L of soy milk a day.
I think the best argument against a vegan diet though is that most people do it without education or planning and encounter nutritional gaps. B12, iron, protein, etc.
Secondary Hypogonadism due to Excessive Ingestion of Isoflavone in a Man - PMC
A 54-year-old man had been drinking approximately 1.2 L of soy milk (equivalent to approximately 310 mg of isoflavones) per day for the previous 3 ...
Alex is vegan (10/10, ty)
It's because I think that argument is an appeal to emotion and not reason or logic, so yes I ignored it. You drive a car and kill all kinds of bugs which are also sentient and suffer from your choice. To be clear I don't really care if someone wants to be vegan, I just don't like the attempts at moral superiority and the harassment of people who disagree(I'm not saying this is you just an example of something I tend to not like about vegans, carnivores also fit into this bubble)
So ..your idea of Veganism is actually kill all the cows for leather 😂 ..
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Argument basically boils down to "it's hard." Fair take. But I do expect more from my fellow humans. I've done restrictive vegan diets, including vegan keto and vegan fodmap, and both are possible. Positive mindset is required.
You don’t love animals, you just hate plants.
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Sentience (ability to feel pleasure and pain) is what matters, not biological meaning of life.
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It's a thoughtful argument. I considered rating it higher because it touches on some points I care about. But it's too out of touch with the current reality, because we're not going to retvrn.
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Darn it. I thought I can get at least one point more 😂
Btw, I’m not with or against veganism, but you asked for an argument. That’s probably why it’s only a three 😅
That slogan holds a special place in my heart, but you still get a 1 because you buy meat at a store.
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Geography- specifically northern communities with limited grow seasons, import opportunities and significant food insecurity.
Married a vegan in a rural northern community. I had limited exposure to vegetables, let alone veganism and to be honest the diet was extremely limiting. I sincerely believed that it was difficult enough to be a solid argument against.
We moved to a small city. That argument became irrelevant.
life is better with less judgement
It's just a game
i know! that's my reason
Come on, man! That was worth at least a 4. Have you never been to a real barbecue? 🤣
Hot, but dumb
I used to eat a lot of meat. Now I think it's kinda gay.
i'll take it, and reassess my inability to resist being rated for futur lmao
Basically the only thing that would do it is by force, either by scarcity, or by transmitted allergens to kinds of meat.
Like that of Red meat allergy due to alpha-gal sensitivity; currently vectored by Lonestar Ticks
You're on Nostr. You're not afraid of being disliked.
AGS is dastardly too, because you can get ill once and pass it off as bad food, then go into anaphylaxis the second time, hours after consumption.
Not that kind of meat. 🤣
Which animals specifically? Isn't it only cows, chickens, pigs, sheep, and fish? Fishing is killing tons of endangered species. The other 4 are least concern from a species standpoint.
I'm not missing the point - land use is destroying habitats.
There are no reasons to argue with vegans. You all already made up your minds and now its starved for real food and can’t function properly 🤷♂️
Ditto
I didn't see the brain size argument in the comments, and I've always blindly assumed that's true since I heard it from saifdean. He also taught me plants are poisonous, since they can't run to evade being eaten.
I joke, but on some level I believe these things. Have never researched the subject much, as you may have surmised by this point in my reply, but appreciate you taking a stand on this unpopular topic
Same as:
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Been vegan for 10+ years and assure you I'm very big brained
Does sentience require a CNS?
If yes, sponges and jellyfish don’t suffer?
If no, damaged plants release chemical distress signals. They alter behavior (growth patterns, resource allocation) to avoid damage. They prime defensive responses after initial exposure, functionally similar to sensitization. Root tips show oscillatory electrical activity that some researchers compare to neural activity.
So plants have no neurons but do have sophisticated signaling. Yet you think they don’t suffer?
Given that we don't understand consciousness, how can you be certain enough about plant insentience to justify killing them without moral concern?
1) requires industrial monocropping and raping the land with pesticides and fertilizer
2) kills way more animals (don't be a speciesist)
3) no vegans have aesthetic physiques
4) vegans have atrophied brains bc they don't get any animal fat
5) vegans make fake meat products, no carnivores are making fake-plant products ("I can't believe it's not carrots" - no one ever)
6) babies instinctively don't like vegetables, would eons of evolution and/or God be wrong?
Genesis 9:2–3
The fear and dread of you will fall on every living creature on the earth, every bird of the air, every creature that crawls on the ground, and all the fish of the sea. They are delivered into your hand. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you; just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you all things.
Animals, including humans, ARE sentient creatures that should not be unnecessarily harmed, modern society is the root source of the overwhelming majority of both animal suffering, largely stemming from modern agriculture practices and their consequences (including factory farming, mass fishing, monoculture farming, and the civilizations, technologies , and environmental destruction developed around them).
But veganism, as a movement, upholds the overwhelming majority of the harms of modernity and simultaneously instills false hope for a reformist future. This isn't inherent to the act of abstaining from animal products, but is deeply instilled in the mainstream vegan advocacy which is filled with corporate greenwashing and largely advocates around the message "Nothing really has to change! Being vegan is easy! Look at all our products you can buy!".
The root solution is to abolish modernity through any means necessary, including either a return to more primitive ways (likely via "apocalypse") OR the potential development of a post-modern solar future. The former would likely result in a huge amount of suffering to achieve but, from a negative utilitarian view, may ultimately be worth it. The former could be possible via global revolution, but will need to work well beyond the lone vegan movement to facilitate the level of societal changes needed to undo the harms of modernity and the vegan movement has been excellent at alienating potential allies in this fight and getting in it's own way.
Basically blow up the whole world to avoid being vegan? 7/10
It takes generations I think. And it passes my heuristic of confirming my biases while sounding plausible, so...
Looks like I win :phpbb2-biggrin: #VeganSupremacy
Only a vegan would pose such a retarded question.
i rate this response a 9.6
I rate this response a 10.1
I made an arguement against veganism. It results in the mass death of the very same domesticated animals the vegans claim to care about.
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😂
I’ll take it
Vegans make fun pets!
my argument is i dont care what you do, or what your dietary preferences are.
Realistically, it's as unsustainable as an all-meat diet long-term; in short term bursts, a limited diet (whether for detoxification or fasting purposes) does wonders physically and mentally as well in some cases, but the longer it's drawn out the more the detriments begin to creep up on you.
Makes you gay
being vegan is following what bill gates wants you to do
😂😂😂
I view it as regressive. You're ancestors ate meat and they're the reason you live today. You wouldn't be here today if they didnt eat meat.
If our ancestors were prey by an animal, it's kill or be killed. Let's say our ancestor wins and now there is a dead animal. In those times of extreme scarcity, it'd be wrong for him to not eat the animal.
He ate it, got stronger and this enabled him to win more fights. If he ate plants he'd be dead and so would you.
Turning your nose up at meat is denying your ancestors lives of struggle to bring you here today.
You’ve probably posted this before, but why are you vegan?
I don't necessarily disagree but from an organizing standpoint this is the single issue we always run into. So much so there's been FNB members in other states who have written about it! We used to cook like 10 veg plates and ppl would be pissed when we even offered them, almost always went to waste so we had to stop even offering it. Also objectively some of it is literally cultural which is more than "hard" its a way of life whether appropriate or not, it requires levels of cultural input, knowledge and then class analysis too. People in west texas who've killed most their meat to survive would be hell bent on being convinced there is a better way when this is what has kept their family going for generations. Hell my granny ate fucken squirrels to stay alive removing portions of ppls diet that they've seen as their life line would be unpopular at best but definitely more than just hard.
Super common near me! Worst part is ppl will still eat red meat because it's all that is available other than refried beans from the 7/11. It's scary what hunger will push people towards but even ppl with celiac disease will often be put in positions where it's starve or eat the fucken wheat.
😂 no mercy on the vegan community
Source ?
Hahaha. The Truth Hurts
☠️
malnourished people needing to be convinced to embrace nutrient density. lmao
Veganism wouldn't allow for milk and butter
Plant Lives Matter!
Dismissing plants' (very real) suffering on arbitrary grounds, but protecting even the stupidest mollusk ("its an animal").
Dismissing goyim slaves' (very real) suffering on arbitrary grounds, whilst refusing to trade in Jewish ones ("they have souls").
= same energy
Lower amounts and worse absorbtion of some nutrients such as zinc, iron, calcium, carnitine, choline. Zero vitamin B12, zero long chain PUFA (only <10% of ALA is coverted to DHA and EPA if I recall correctly). Lower quality (deficiencies in essential amino acids, lower absorbtion) and amount of protein. As a celiac many options for diversification (to better cover e.g. EAAs) are out of question. Same goes for FODMAP. This is why I keep *some* animal products in my diet. Plant foods, including seed oils, have plenty of benefits, but these were arguments against dropping animal foods completely.
All food production kills animals and even whole ecosystems (think rotational grazing vs. endless fields of monocrops), making the killing animals argument kind of silly and predators are part of the natural cycle (I'm not defending factory farming here! We should do it better than that). Many places aren't suitable for planting crops but are perfect for grazing.
Big farms are a problem but plantations are even worse than animal farms because they extract a lot from the soil, animals extract but give back a lot as feces. Small family farms are great for the environment and need zero external fertilizers and the animal feces create a healthy equilibrium and that's impossible to obtain with only plants
Love you boss.
Veganism is a failed moral philosophy. More animals die from avoiding an obvious food choice we were evolved to consume than by their actual consumption.
It's unfortunate that we were born into the life/death cycle, but attempting avoid it will only make it worse.
It’s just sucks eating grass all day
Why is sentience important? Is it okay to piss on a person's grave just because they aren't sentient anymore? If someone drowns in front of you, is it suddenly okay to kick over a person's sand castle just becauee theu aren't sentient anymore?
If you numb someone's arm so that they can no longer feel pleasure or pain in that arm, is it okay to cut it off with a hacksaw?
If something bad happens to a forest, but the forest isn't sentient, isn't it still bad?
Isn't morality supposed to be about reality? Do you actually respect the things that sentient beings care about? Or is morality just a meaningless checklist of creatures whose perspectives you can safely ignore just because you aren't causing them any physical pleasure or pain?
I mean okay, and what if plant's ARE conscious? How does that prove it's okay to eat meat? It just seems like all that argument does is make it immoral to eat plants too.
Yes.
Every steak represents a share in the liberation of an animal from its tedious existence.
"Vegan" leather is just plastic with extra steps in all current cases. Which contributes to microplastic build up. (However, the most damaging microplastic contributor is fishing nets, so y'know. The mycelium leather loafers and belt are like...nothing compared.)
Raison d’etat , what your reason ?
Most omnivores have low B12 levels because B12 isn't heat-stable, and animal carcasses and their "products" are usually not eaten raw.
No one has ever died from a protein deficiency ;) And yes, it takes some knowledge and planning, regardless of the diet. I bet most people with lifestyle diseases aren't necessarily vegan :)
It looks like you mistook lions for humans 😆🤣 Several stomachs are found in herbivorous animals. Humans also have a relatively long intestine compared to lions. Humans are fruitarians. The pancreas produces sodium bicarbonate to alkalize the acid coming from the stomach 🤓
This is because the body cannot produce its own energy, as it is used to absorbing stress hormones from animal carcasses.
It's definitely a privilege to have access to a wide variety of foods.
I'm thinking especially of indigenous peoples... They eat what's available to them. But they eat mindfully, not excessively, like those who think meat and animal products are the only true way.
If I lived in a healthy environment where people live in harmony with nature, then it really wouldn't be a crime to occasionally eat an egg from a wild chicken or drink a few drops of milk from a goat or cow that has just given birth. The problem is, those who eat excessive amounts of animals and their derivatives... As this causes exploitation and suffering. And that's the problem.
It's definitely a privilege to have access to a wide variety of foods.
I'm thinking especially of indigenous peoples... They eat what's available to them. But they eat mindfully, not excessively, like those who think meat and animal products are the only true way.
If I lived in a healthy environment where people live in harmony with nature, then it really wouldn't be a crime to occasionally eat an egg from a wild chicken or drink a few drops of milk from a goat or cow that has just given birth. The problem is, those who eat excessive amounts of animals and their derivatives... As this causes exploitation and suffering. And that's the problem.
It's about questioning what is moral.
I have vegan leather made from apples and I have seen it made from cactus and other natural things
Vegan since 15 years and healthy :)
It's true that plants produce antinutrients to protect themselves from predators. However, if you know how to prepare food, these substances can be largely broken down. Furthermore, animals also consume these antinutrients, and then humans eat the meat or its derivatives, thus ingesting antinutrients as well. In addition, meat contains a lot of stress hormones because the animals are afraid when they realize they are about to be killed. These stress hormones are then absorbed by human.
🤣🤣🤣 Same the other way around...
Only a non-vegan would give such a retarded answer 🤣
Check out my account and you'll see what grass eating looks like 😉
If you eat meat, eat the whole animal! An animal doesn't just walk around with a rib or stake! Eat their entrails, drink their blood!
I was always a good cook, but going vegan made me a great cook. I really know what to do with a vegetable now. Like the Italians 😉
If you're vegan and want to join a vegan decentralized community, hit me up to add you to the follow pack list 💚
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I compost and return what was stolen to the plants. Minus a "finder's fee", of course!
#ReparationsForThePlantKingdom #ReparationsNow
Cheap pets, too :)
Guineapig-owners and WEF-attendees can't both be wrong!
Reason for eating steak, or for not being one?
On the former, I'll add that most farmland in my country cannot be sustainably monoculture-cropped, but can be sown to a diverse pasture and grazed quite sustainably.
Paying for soybeans is paying to clear rainforests, paying for erosion, and paying for more extreme weather events.
Paying for sustainable/regen ag beef or lamb is paying someone to heal the land, instead.
What are the cactus fibers bonded to? The cactus leather I know of is made using a framework of plastic to bond the cactus fibers. I don't know anything about apple leather but I bet it's the same.
This is spot on. 🎯 the relationship with food is very different in the north.
But hold on a minute. This is the very same group that was here claiming Bitcoin is the currency of peace, love, freedom, and health. 😉
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1) Mother Nature is a cruel bitch. Life ends for an animal either through disease and starvation or else by the claws and teeth of a predator tearing through living flesh while in a state of horror or through both. 2) If you restrict yourself to the industrial food system veganism is superior ethically to oknivorism but this is restricting yourself from a third way where animals are raised and killed ethically and thoughtfully outside the current food system.
3) In this third way animals can live nearly their best life and avoid the death in 1) thus superior to nature. Doubt that humans can create a system better than nature? Consider if you would like to return to it by leaving our human created society to face 1) in nature. We have done it for ourselves we can do it for livestock.
4) So given there is a third way that is possible why should veganism not be followed: A) Humans are apart of earths ecology and evolution not distinct from it. Humans are adapted to a diet of eating meat among vegetables and fruits etc. because of this humans get satisfaction from the full range of tastes and aligned to their coevolution including sources of meat. (Bacon tastes good) The flavor gives pleasure as human coevolution would require. Just as it gives any predator pleasure to eat its prey. A greater pleasure in life is achieved by any who would otherwise deprive themselves. This is a good thing the more of it the better. B) Due to human coevolution, humans have nutritional requirements that are met more easily through the consumption of meat. Better health or less time and resources spent in preparation of alternatives for any who would otherwise be depriving themselves. C) The financial incentive in feeding a vegan human is the direct agriculture to feed the human alone with no intermediary so only the foods which are palatable and safe for humans are grown in agriculture. The financial incentive for feeding an omnivore human is the agriculture to support the human and all their livestock they consume. This is necessarily a more diverse arrangement of plant species being cultivated by humans. Even the current industrial food system is brought to meet the financial incentive of providing a diverse enough landscape to meet the needs of livestock plus humans , and providing the needs for livestock plus humans is more likely to provide additional niches for other plants and animals than an industrial food system where it is financially incentivized to provide only the plants required for humans alone. As bad as the current food production system is, when it now provides for humans plus livestock, it would be worse if it were just meeting the needs of humans. Additionally the third way allows for animals being raised ethically and thoughtfully to necessarily support an environment that would meet the still broader space and life requirements that would also support the most niches supplied by a financial incentive.
Finally) Therefore, The choice for veganism within the industrial food system is worse for the surviving animals, humans and the earth itself than the choice to be an omnivore outside the industrial food system. As being an omnivore outside the industrial food system is the natural state of humans in our coevolution with the natural ecology of earth. The problem vegans have is not necessarily eating meat, it is eating meet within the status quo. Just as veganism is not convenient it’s also not convenient to leave the industrial food system. But that doesn’t make the ethical and nutritional and ecological arguments any less true.
See you know im right but lack of complete protein profile makes you so weak that you couldn't type the 0.
Let me do it for you
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Cognitive dissonance overload 🤯
I'm not equipped to have the argument, nor really trying to defend eating meat, but am curious if it's the case that these plant antinutrients exist in vegetables and fruits, or just in leaves and the like. It seems unlikely they'd exist in the seed-baring parts of plants, since those are meant to be consumed.
Sorry 😆 here some answers:
Antinutrients you can find mostly in leaves, Seeds, husk, roots, bark.
Like oxalates, phytic acid, lectins, tannins, saponins, etc.
If you soak seeds 12 to 48 hours before eating, the antinutrients decrease and so they are way better digestible.
For ex. eating sprouts, let grains germinate and then ferment them (sour dough is better digestible as industrial wheat bread, cause it’s given the time needed to decrease antinutrients and the bacteria during fermentation create enzymes and vitamins). Still I believe we are not made to eat grains and legumes! In case we do, they should be at least germinated/speouted.
IMOP we should eat lots of fruits. They give us all the nutrients needed! Yes, also proteins. In the small amounts we actually need them. Seeds and nuts should be also soaked at least over night, to decrease antinutrients.
This is how our grand- and grandmothers used to do it. But time has become stressful and scarce in our society…and everything must be fast!
That’s why wheat has been manipulated to grow faster, industry have the power to make us ill by producing low energetic food… etc. etc….sorry, I could go on and on and on.
I’m in the health sector since 20 years 😆
Gladly there is more variiert then just salad 😂
It's a great episode, that stuck with me all these years later.
Fwiw, I'm a salad enjoyer. Enjoy a mixed diet, and not a full carnivore-only bitcoiner type, though I do get swayed by their arguments the few times I've looked into them a bit. I prefer not to think about the moral implications that arise from these conversations too much...it's uncomfortable
Good stuff, thanks for sharing!
Add @MK Fain to the list
😂
My point is it is stupid to virtue signal that you’re a good person for not harming animals while you’re harming plants. Vegans even harm thousands of rodents and insects via mass farming. Avoiding harming every single multi-cell form of life is an exhausting and endless exercise. Individual adults can draw their own lines for their own lives. I don’t believe is is moral to force children or pets to be vegan. (Inb4 anybody’s eating pets reply.)
Ultimately, I believe it is moral enough to continue most regional predation hierarchies as is. It is complex and there are many nuances. There is no universal guideline that should apply to every village globally.
I am irritated because by focusing on how vegans act (hypocritically, virtue signalling, etc...) you are avoiding the core moral question of whether it's ever okay to torture or kill others for the sake of food. What if vegans killed themselves? What if animals could talk? You are just as bad as vegans.
Good question! I actually don’t know. You can probably make a faux leather out of just about anything if you attach it to plastic.
Yeah see, and listen I'm not like vehemently anti-plastic. I believe it has good uses! But sustainable fabrics like leather, which already is off the animal which they use for meat, are ok too! They last longer, they're more comfortable, most retain heat better. And this goes double for wool which doesn't involve killing the animal at all! I also am not anti vegan! I just think certain aspects of vegan culture are missing the point a little.
Yep! I believe the going price is one motor-mower!
Oh right... If you want to avoid gas then stop eating vegan... 😅💨