Replies (116)
Yeah, I much prefer positive feedback loop mechanisms to the current status quo of engagement-rage-bait shit that other systems use.
sounds right to me
#zap are the game changer, few..
Guy Swann
Holy shit, I think I just realized a direct and concrete way that I’ve personally experienced to how #Nostr completely changes the social incentives:
• Rage and hateful posts on Twitter get the most attention.
• Positive and happy posts on Nostr get the most zaps.
It really was just monetization all the time.
When attention is the currency, negativity and hate rise to the top because the platforms need people arguing.
When sats directly from peers are the currency, value rises to the top.
(Anyone else feel they’ve had this same experience?)
View quoted note →
People follow incentives.
If we build things with the right incentives the world will be a better place.
Yeah, I agree, I think if you act like an arsehole here you're not likely to get much attention and certainly not likely to be zapped - every time I go back to the dead bird it's as clear as day the algos are there to deliberately piss you off
Negativity is still going to get a lot of attention but probably not much zaps
Which makes all the difference.
Zapping is an act of generosity.
Generosity probably less common amongst the haters
An important point. Let's hope that it will be possible to keep using nostr for a long time without damaging algorithms taking over the relay business and turning them into something no one really wants
Guy Swann
Holy shit, I think I just realized a direct and concrete way that I’ve personally experienced to how #Nostr completely changes the social incentives:
• Rage and hateful posts on Twitter get the most attention.
• Positive and happy posts on Nostr get the most zaps.
It really was just monetization all the time.
When attention is the currency, negativity and hate rise to the top because the platforms need people arguing.
When sats directly from peers are the currency, value rises to the top.
(Anyone else feel they’ve had this same experience?)
View quoted note →
I've never been famous,so idk
I really felt the same so I wrote this just earlier❣️
View quoted note →
kohei
I think Nostr is the one & only place where you can gain profit in every context from telling the truth or spreading love. This is the only platform in the world where people can say 'GM' and hug each other across countries in various languages every morning. I JUST LOVE IT. ⚡🫂❣️
View quoted note →
I’m not sure if it’s an aspect of monetization itself, or if due to self-selection bias the people on Nostr are just more positive. But the logic makes sense and I guess we will see in time.
it's because twitter meets the interests of the advertisers, from who they depending, not their users. Users are only a tool to reach the money of the advertisers
Nostr depend only of their users, so only interests of the users will prevail
Hopefully this will also be a behaviour that will be mirrored in real life when we move to a sound money standard and strengthen P2P relationships / transactions.
It’s not about making money, it’s about giving it.
I’m almost always net negative in sats on #Nostr. If you read closely what I said instead of projecting your issues with other people you might have noticed. Hope you have a better day though 😁👍🏻
Yeah and I know it’s been talked about many different times. Even I’ve talked about it. But something about the way it clicked earlier just made it much more real for some reason.
Better communist then jew? Is that your point ?
Nah you do got a point
It seems to be the case. Maybe in a few more years everyone will know for certain. 🤔
Exacto, en #nostr es solo alegría, nadie pelea y todos nos llevamos bien 💜🫡👏👏👏
Yes! 🤙 Part of why I went #onlyzaps early on.
#Nostr is the cream.
There’s a great book by a Wharton professor on what emotions make viral content it’s actually interesting. I recall there’s two axes one is positive/negative the other is energy of the emotion (ie sad is low energy and negative angry is high energy and negative, wonder is high energy and positive) Obviously corporations can mess with whatever they want. Worth reading either way
The biggest story around Nostr isn’t censorship resistance.
It’s the total reshaping of the incentive structure on the Web. The platform silos currently hold most of the power, but Nostr will shift it to users and content creators. This will become more obvious as we build out the tools for users and content creators. Zaps are just the starting point. Exciting times ahead.
View quoted note →this
Guy Swann
Holy shit, I think I just realized a direct and concrete way that I’ve personally experienced to how #Nostr completely changes the social incentives:
• Rage and hateful posts on Twitter get the most attention.
• Positive and happy posts on Nostr get the most zaps.
It really was just monetization all the time.
When attention is the currency, negativity and hate rise to the top because the platforms need people arguing.
When sats directly from peers are the currency, value rises to the top.
(Anyone else feel they’ve had this same experience?)
View quoted note →
Choose your network, constructive or destructive
I don’t think so. Some negative content can be valuable. Value isn’t negative or positive because value is subjective. I value posts making fun of statists whereas others might hate it. I think what nostr does do is allow people to connect with those who have similar values. A lot of monero fans like to shit on bitcoin. Bitcoiners think it’s negative but monero fans don’t. They would zap each other on those “negative” posts if monero could integrate into nostr 😂
My fellow brethren, Mr Swann today has indeed identified and articulated the how and why this shit is holy.
Guy Swann
Holy shit, I think I just realized a direct and concrete way that I’ve personally experienced to how #Nostr completely changes the social incentives:
• Rage and hateful posts on Twitter get the most attention.
• Positive and happy posts on Nostr get the most zaps.
It really was just monetization all the time.
When attention is the currency, negativity and hate rise to the top because the platforms need people arguing.
When sats directly from peers are the currency, value rises to the top.
(Anyone else feel they’ve had this same experience?)
View quoted note →
You should welcome criticism. That's the crucible for improvement. Assume Monero is a complete dead-end, if nothing else, those Monero reply guys helped put pressure on Bitcoiners to bring more privacy solutions to shut them up. Win/win imo.
To your last sentence, Nostr already has a couple Monero integrations:
https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/
GitHub
GitHub - retrnull/garnet: A fork of Amethyst with Monero tipping support
A fork of Amethyst with Monero tipping support. Contribute to retrnull/garnet development by creating an account on GitHub.
With #value4value, quality rises to the top.
Always has been. #v4v
Guy Swann
Holy shit, I think I just realized a direct and concrete way that I’ve personally experienced to how #Nostr completely changes the social incentives:
• Rage and hateful posts on Twitter get the most attention.
• Positive and happy posts on Nostr get the most zaps.
It really was just monetization all the time.
When attention is the currency, negativity and hate rise to the top because the platforms need people arguing.
When sats directly from peers are the currency, value rises to the top.
(Anyone else feel they’ve had this same experience?)
View quoted note →
#value4value is the paradigm shift behind your observation,
@Guy Swann.
i don't think it is about money. it is about 'vibes'. hateful people are seeking (attracting) hateful people outside. happy people are attracting the happy on nostr. everyone is content in their 'vibe chamber'. if someone only knows hate, they will stay on twitter just to feel alive. because most people have forgotten how to be happy. it does not compute.
We'll be choosing our own algorithms in time. That will be the ultimate piece towards the free market for the social media attention.
Guess I need to learn how to conect a wallet so I can start zapping.
This is why I try to do only zaps. WTF is a "like" except another entry in a database.
Guy Swann
Holy shit, I think I just realized a direct and concrete way that I’ve personally experienced to how #Nostr completely changes the social incentives:
• Rage and hateful posts on Twitter get the most attention.
• Positive and happy posts on Nostr get the most zaps.
It really was just monetization all the time.
When attention is the currency, negativity and hate rise to the top because the platforms need people arguing.
When sats directly from peers are the currency, value rises to the top.
(Anyone else feel they’ve had this same experience?)
View quoted note →
Natural laws still apply. Resources aggregate and distribute.
When you got into bitcoin correlates to how much bitcoin you have.
It can't be any other way without being corrupt.
Now now
Which is why, all things equal, you should zap the smaller accounts that say something insightful or offer value because it will stand out more and have a greater incentivizing effect.
But I agree with both of you — Twitter drags you down into the cesspool of paranoia, while Nostr clearly has different incentives. Don’t think it’s so much “positivity” as saying something everyone is thinking but hasn’t yet articulated to themselves.
And that’s how it should be.
No zaps for doot
Here's my theory.
People on Twitter adapt their message to fit within the constrainsts of the character limit.
As a result of the compacted and cryptic message with little space to express nuances, readers can be predicted jump to wrong conclusions, which generate unnecessary side-debates.
Here on Nostr we have the *space* to include the nuances that we have in mind and it is far easier to avoid misreadings.
Another part of this is that people on average would refuse to zap a post they are angry at xD
So it's an inclination in the right direction, fully.
It’s the exact same thing. It’s ok if you don’t want to acknowledge it, but it is. Here, they’re just not putting video to it. 🤷🏻
Not the first time I have stumbled across a post from someone who is obviously looking for attention.
Yes and not just because of the money
I think twice about listing on nostr because you can’t easily delete it…
For now…
What goes on nostr stays on nostr
Yeah, I doubt the big accounts even look at zaps. Basically giving $5 tips to millionaires. I'm not against it, but the idea that they notice or care is laughable.
I didn’t address that part of your original rant because there was no reason to. Not everyone is a pedantic prick. I know Nostr is a protocol and not a platform, otherwise the apps we use would be called, wait for it. Nostr. Are you happy now that I have acknowledged you? Do you feel seen?
Go back to your mom’s basement, kid, I have no time for your nonsense today.
It is a well-known phenomenon that people prefer to put their money where lots of other money already is. It feels like a safe investment.
And, as you note, people aren't only enthusiastic about positive notes. They're also enthusiastic about insightful, uncanny, or revelatory notes, which are often "negative" in tone.
That isn't reflected in zap statistics because the follower count is by far the strongest pull-factor, as visibility is required to receive a zap. We would have to analyze zaps/views, in order to determine a correlation.
Same as we can't analyze how influential someone's writing is without accounting for the effect the writing has on the subsequent writing of those who have viewed it. Some npubs may be very high-visibility, but have little influence, and vice-versa.
@liminal 🦠 you were talking about how we could analyze this, right?
Knowing that it is a protocol, why are you worried about Nostr becoming like TikTok? Your worry about people acting like idiots in front of cameras is more about the people using tech that incentives them to act so. But again, Nostr does not care.
JFC, dude. I said it’s possible for Nostr to be used in the same fashion. If you’re receiving zaps then you are effectively being paid for your post. Pointing out that this is the same thing people do on tictok, is not hard to grasp.
Half the reason people are on tictok, is to gain followers, the other half is to then monetize those followers. The exact same thing can be done here. You invest a lot of time into building a following that you then begin monetizing by posting notes you know they will like and will zap.
Understand now?
similar phenomenon in music too. Some of the biggest artists by record sales had relatively little influence while some niche ones with cult followings had massive.
But I do think nostr due to lack of algos and centralized thumbing the scale is already way better at surfacing interesting posts from anyone than the legacy social platforms.
I’m starting to think you’re hung up on the fact that I called them idiots, which makes me think you may be one of them and would explain why you have been so defensive about it.
You’re harping on one aspect of the conversation without taking the rest of it into account.
Your concerns are still about people, not Nostr. Understand now?
I don’t care about that. I’m pointing out that your worry is not actually about Nostr
Yesterday the most zapped notes were about Venezuela, and the trending where mostly Bitcoin Conference, with a concrete note about Venezuela. So there is a different signal.
I don’t think you understand what you’re trying to say. 😂
Also why does every one of your notes need to throw an insult? I’ve been simply replying to your notes, but you’re kind of being an asshole unnecessarily. No idea why you think that kind of attitude pays off in the long run.
You know none of this will go away, right? Your attitude and ineptitude on display.
Really, that’s what you come up with? You seem to have a short memory. In either case, I’ve given you more time than you deserved and will be playing you on the blocked list.
Take care, I’m sure you’ll find someone else to argue with today.
Good luck
Things tend to be popular because they offend nobody, not because they inspire anybody.
Nostr is actually much more centralized than legacy platforms, in practice, as there is no mitigating effect to counter the name recognition some npubs have when they arrive here, and so many people are only here to read what some particular person or persons writes. It's mostly a collection of fan clubs.
Discoverability of material is an effect of overt human reactions, so that creates a permanent vacuum to the same handful of npubs, as they have fan clubs who react as a sort of homage ritual.
Ya i'm not sure whether this will eventually show any correlation, especially due to human nature's tendency to give negative posts more attention. However, if it turns out that users are more likely to zap positive content then this could help those posts trend higher and potentially displace the negativity 🤷♂️ we'll see!
Niche music shifts the artistic Overton window and then more-popular musicians adopt a sanitized version for the masses.
You can observe the same thing on here. Some npubs are unpopular, but constantly shift the window and have enough readers to demand a response of some kind. The responses to their notes often get more play than their notes do, but they're effectively driving the conversation through novelty.
That could be mapped. You'd see waves of responses and speech patterns rippling out from their notes.
I see some of that, but if you use the protocol all the time, you end up interacting with a lot of worthwhile characters of whom you’ve never heard. (As I’m sure you know better than most.)
Yes. I'm my own discoverability algo. 😁
Not with that attitude it doesn't.
You have never increased the signal in my feed.
OK. Bye.
That would also catch air replies, by the way. You would be able to see the connection through the content of the note.
Agreed and to add, it hit me during last weeks 2024 Bitcoin Nashville conference watching remotely online, with the sophistication level of AI assisted compute power now available in the hands of scammers, traditional social media platforms across all non-PUB/PRIV key platforms are obsolete… if your not on #Nostr, well then….
I agree
nicely put! can you help me close this gap in my thinking -
web2 discovery mechanisms served content which held the users attention the longest. long app usage times = more ad revenue.
in nostr, positive and happy posts get the most zaps - i hear you
so does it mean that we were following the chasing the wrong metrics all along?
i suppose crypto’s ability to incentivise sustainable hyper local growth means we no longer need to scale to a billion users for every app?
hyper local sustainable economies is the way?
I don’t think it alters very much about any other dynamics of the network effect. So anything about size of reach and amount of engagement/zaps would probably remain true for pretty much all of social to varying degrees (depending on how that platform specifically amplifies certain content vs natural network effects.)
I only think it’s alters the “balance of power” so to speak between stuff that people find valuable, and stuff that keeps them looking for the next dopamine bump reinforced by centralized platforms. Value also doesn’t mean “always positive” either even though it sounds like I sort of equate them in the OP.
I only mean to point out that the incentives seem to change significantly when it’s direct micropayments from peers guiding the content, vs large platforms tailoring content to prevent people from logging out.
Based Niels being based, as per usual.
Regarding simping for celebrities as positive content we should encourage more of and on-site journalism from plebs as negative content we should actively discourage is perverse.
A lot of zapping just seems to be a form of worship detached from a particular content. They're enthusiastic about the npub, not the note.
Why is it that a community so passionate for decentralization keeps zapping valuable sats to those who obviously have plenty?
I think it's the lack of algorithm that does that, more than anything else. I've noticed that Facebook seems to show my posts primarily to those most likely to be angered by them, rather than to those most likely to appreciate them. And then because the algorithms are also built "the rich get richer" style (those with more interaction stay higher in the feed) that feeds into itself.
I miss the time-based feeds (esp. on Pinterest) that allowed little-known content to be discovered if you logged on at the right time to see it.
There's also something to be said about no take-backs. If you post it, you better be comfortable with it forever!
There's also the reality that Nostr has a higher barrier to entry at the moment. That has a natural filtering effect. Consequently, I suspect that currently the average IQ of Nostr is higher than the average IQ of Twitter.
Completely!
Zapping incentive model doesn’t incentivize trolling or negativity unless it’s some neat shitposting 😜
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I see what you’re doing here… you’re just trying to get more zaps by adding positive value 🤔
This folks, was my nostr moment, just makes perfect sense.
Very high probability that nostr will win. We will make it. 🙌
This folks, was my nostr moment, just makes perfect sense.
Very high probability that nostr will win. We will make it. 🙌
@Guy Swann
View quoted note →I find my most Zapped posts are when we dunk on twitter and celebrate Nostr 🤣
So kinda?
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*immediately earns 10 million sats*
🤣🤣🤣
Because they aren't so passionate for decentralization. They just wanted a new king.
Very very VERY true! 🥰
🤐
Any assessment aside, you realize that this has nothing to do in either way with decentralization right?
Decentralization is about not having middle men between you and who you want to speak to, or the ideas you want to hear. It's about actually having your own control or direction of your own consumption of content or social interactions. Decentralization doesn't possibly mean that every single person or every project or every business will all get the exact same engagement, number of customers, or outcome from their situation.
What you are suggesting is a value to strive for is "equity" or equality of outcome. Which is a socialist ideal, not one of free choice and decentralization. This is a simple reality of social beings. Literally all social beings actually. This has nothing to do with #nostr or #bitcoin or even humans.
> “This is a simple reality of social beings”
Yes. This simple reality that we naturally “follow” or “amplify” what others are doing is indeed a hallmark of sociality. This is a centralizing force that we leverage to learn from and align with each other.
Centralization is what we do well, almost too well. Centralization creates bigger societies and feeds bigger government and bigger business.
No. I am not suggesting equality of outcome. Indeed, equality can only be measured and outcome can only be enforced by the same centralizing forces. Not this.
To be clear, I am pointing out the obvious fact that (as is human nature) followers will always prefer to amplify the signal that others are following. Having less to do with quality of content than influencer power, this IS a centralizing force. No bones about it.
I have no solution or desire to define or impose fairness. I am simply pointing out the irony of “decentralization” as a desired feature in a social network.
It ain’t easy.
LMAO, it actually is. If you want to jerk each other off with zaps and the like, the fediverse works just as good.
It has everything to do with indifference to decentralization, if the money in the system goes to rich celebrities as homage, rather than developers, creators, and service providers as payment for goods or services rendered.
Then the producers go to those celebrities for income, turning them into supplicants to centralized monetary dispersal, rather than entrepreneurs in a free market, selling directly to consumers and competing on quantity, quality, and price.
If the money is centralized, then the power is also centralized because the decision-making is centralized.
Yup. Just like the mining pools also… right?
The knee-jerk equity argument had such limp energy.
💯
Almost insulting. Mostly pathetic. But I trust that “the guy who has read more on bitcoin than anyone else” is also smart enough to know better. Prolly just being lazy.
I predicted this when i first heard of nostr
A challenge will be that it could become a kind of onlyfans though.
I totally agree😄
One user with split personalities when using either apps lol
Don’t worry. When I start my onlyfans you can have the first month free 😆
Humans find the shortest route to value ! Zaps is like #Panama canal ..
☯️
Word- LFG! Copernicoin Revolution!
#yestr
Especially when, no offense to any Nostr Client Dev the zap notification systems kind of get silly at times :/ .
