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just mute him bro
I'll kindly ask you to delete that. It was sent to your company.
nah
I know right. So dumb
WTF is happening…?
fuck off
The next drama session 😂😂😂
Good bot
I've never heard of this fuckstr character; gving them a follow now
(But might unfollow soon, I haven't checked any of their content yet)
Some here might better stay on X or Bluesky 😅
nevent1qqs23f8sc02flfetrf4vm0fdx7fpce8p9ya69r7fcuftpvxjza0mzpc0qe78n
What would you do if your life is being affected by a disrespectful douchebag?
Sure, it isn't a route I'd take, but, it is not a wrong thing to do. He wasn't demanding anything. He was politely asking for help with trying to figure out exactly who was attacking him. Making that public is the douchy thing.
You are acting like a disgusting prick over this. Get over yourself.
Making it public is not that bad. The doxxing is fucked. I will admit it.
It’s not the first this week? 🤭
he doxxed himself you dumb fuck
naaah we need it
🥱
legal warfare affects us all. I support the doxxing
love this shit. i think im going harder. see you tomorrow @TheGrinder aka andy 😂 embarrassing and pathetic
can't take you seriously you are a dumb fuck
when nothing works the primitive insults starts.. dad of 2 and mr army vet
lmao fake account @Lucas M
im your father and im very disappointed. sorry to tell you now after all these years. we dropped you on your head when you were 3. @Lucas M that might give some explanation for your behaviour. have a wonderful day son keep.up the good notes #plebchain
which part? fake lawyer's letter or @TheGrinder s tantrum?
Will posting it for everyone to read.
gotcha 👍
I don't have an issue with the email. I do have an issue with the doxxing. That's completely unconscionable.
Not much of a chess player, are you? 🤣
Doxxing is wrong.
What proof is there of any of the accusations? Calling someone you don't like a pedo is really gross. If there's actual, verifiable proof, then post that and stop this purile idiocy. Calling for doxxing only makes you and the other annoyance look like juvenile jerkwads.
Put up or stfu.
You have a right to speak all you want. And the plaintiff has a right to sue you and laugh all the way to the bank. The clients and relays have the right to throttle and affect their Freedom of Association.
This is a completely reasonable reaction to Fuckstr's Free Speech. Fuckstr is not a doctor debating COVID. He's not speaking out against a genocide. He's not Nick Shirley. He's an asshole who is probably both civilly and criminally liable. He made this mess. And you're kind of a fag if you're trying to absolve him of it.
Not defending the doxxing, but that email is way out of line. It most assuredly is demanding; demands backed by an implied (but probably fake) threat of legal action.
If I went running to lawyers every time somebody started a malicious rumour about me IRL... I'd be broke and the rumours would still be out there.
The best remedy to bad speech is good speech, and the second best remedy is being anon.
I will politely disagree over the tone of the letter. (I've helped write enough letters and read enough letters from lawyers, I think, to come to the conclusion that the email in question was not "strongly worded implying negative action will be taken, etc.")
This is more than a simple smear campaign. It is a vendetta that seems to be expanding. Will threw gas on the fire. Will runs a company with an address where a legal entity can reach the company. You might consider the letter an opening salvo. On a centralized platform, what fuckstr and co are doing is *absolutely* libelous (*unless* they can provide proof), and all of the notes related to the doxxing could(and should) be taken down. Given that this is a protocol, the attempt to gather information without some fairly heavy skills in tracking (which is fairly easily mitigated by a vpn and etc.), is technically unlikely (unless it's all being piped through primal...).
But, Grinder is being, IMO, level-headed and civil in all this. He asked for info. He requested Will take down his own note that contains his PII. None of that is unreasonable. Will is being, yet again, a petulant turd and choosing to make things worse.
None of this has to happen. None of this needs to keep being made worse.
You're right that good speech is the remedy. I certainly agree with that. But... Given that several of the parties involved are blatantly acting in bad faith, that gets significantly harder to do.
I'm not absolving anyone. The guy seems like a real gem, bless his heart. But, I don't believe in taking legal action against speech. I believe that relay operators can do whatever they want. It's their relay. But, to threaten to send men with shiny badges and tiny hats to make that decision for them.... That would be like going to a bar that this fuckstr guy goes to and telling the bar owner not to let him in because he says naughty things you don't like and if you don't, you're going to shut his bar down. Theresa lot of nuance in this situation.
Bottom line, sending a lawyer to threaten involving Daddy State is 100% a bitch move. Posting the real name and email address and not just the email substance; equally a bitch move. That's my take. If tou disagree, I get it. We can respectfully agree to disagree without calling names. 🙂
For 99% of cases I'd be in agreement with you. But when you threaten to take someone's life or accuse them of pretty heinous crimes, it goes beyond just Muh Free Speech. I've seen this Fuckstr asshole take it way too far consistently for month. Once again if it was 2 or 3 times it would be dick behavior but not borderline criminal. It is not just behavior toward the Grinder. This guy's behavior is unacceptable and it deserves harsh punishment. I don't care who dispenses it and I really don't think it's a bitch move to escalate the way The Grinder is, the same way escalation is necessary when a stupid asshole waives a gun around in your face.
@The Beave is right on all fronts. That's for sure.
What are you talking about?
TheGrinder sent a respectful and PRIVATE request to Will. Instead, his overinflated ego told him to take it as insult, and then chose to doxx someone, on an open-source communications protocol, who didn't wish to be doxxed. TheGrinder actually does have some legal ground here.
Waving a gun around is a false comparison. No one believes that the Grinder is a pederast. Not one person. It's almost like a flat-earther hollerin' about the firmament. Like I said, you and I just fundamentally disagree on the breadth of free speech and that's okay. I get where you're coming from.
Weird
This is actually the problem. You do not care.
This is really just not fine to publish related private email accounts with clearly not-nostr related names.
I am ashamed of your post.
Then unfollow me
Thanks. No one does a moral duty to defend antisocial behavior.
I disagree with involving the state is a bitch move. Everyone has the right to ask the state for protection. And every person has then the right to be heared from a public court, if the allegation is false.
Doxxing has happened. So when Doxxing is something that is illegal, where @jb55 lives, then Grinder can probably successfully accuse him of this. No coward move. Simple correctio of wrongdoings.
You have no say whom I follow or not follow.
You do a lot of stuff with good intention and do them well. But to Doxx a person, to hold power over him is such a cowerd move.
Doxxing someone, on purpose and with malice, is a violation of both the EU GDPR and German criminal law, under Section 126a of the StGB (Dangerous dissemination of personal data).
publishing emails is doxxing now. lmao. ya’ll are insane.
I can understand your motivation, but doxxing someone like this is just not ok. Could have stripped email and real name from the txt and your point would have been made without harming anyone (including your own reputation).
if someone emails me they have no right to any confidentiality in the email. they doxxed themselves. Sorry if im not going out of my way to protect the identity of someone threatening legal action
I really don’t understand why you are doing this.
Don’t be a jerk.
unfollow me
Is this a genuine question? When one reveals identifying information about someone, clearly this is doxxing.
What did you think doxxing would be?
Uh did we just find the most sensible pleb in nostr-space? 🥰
So cute. Doxxing people and every criticism you are not handling in any way. At least be as strong to react to criticism.
...to someone else, you do not even know in real life.
Personal data, under GDPR, constitutes anything pertaining to an identifiable natural person. That includes e-mail, financial information, cryptographic keys, IP address, name, telephone number, photographs, etc.
I have no idea what demons are chasing you, but we are not the insane ones, here.
just for fun, i researched this. Looked at the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, and the British Columbia Privacy Act. From what I can tell anyway…
“a takedown request aimed at suppressing someone else’s posts has a plausible public-interest / transparency angle. So if the app creator simply posted, “Here is the takedown request we received from John Smith, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy.”
in other words, if youre going to send legally threatening letters to app creators on a notable non-censorship protocol, dont be surprised when the email is published in its entirety.
The person emailing him tied both together. Doesn't seem like they cared either at that point. Pretty stupid on their part.
This is simple victim blaming.
Grinder revealed his name to jb55. jb55 doxxed him to the protocol.
When doxxing is not a threat to censorship resistance of a community, I really do not know what is.
"Grinder revealed his name to jb55"
Like I said pretty stupid.
Also trying to get events removed on an ostensibly censorship resistant protocol is futile and stupid as well just saying.
This is like doing the same of making photo’s of people who try to be anonymous online and attend irl panels/talks (we have many and you know them)
When you are together with these people and they take off their masks, we all know that we dont take pictures or videos of them.
This is not something very difficult to understand right?
I can't find a lawyer by that name. Does she even exist? Why isn't SHE sending the letter on behalf of her client?
I don't even consider this to a LEGAL THREAT, it's just a regular threat. And this being a regular threat I don't see what the fuzz about doxxing is all about. It's fair game.
why are you still talking to me? go bother someone else
Those people at conferences don't try to force my hands though. If they did, sure people would be less welcoming to their desires.
No. Fuck the state. We can do better.
What is the core problem here? The state will not protect you. They will waste years of everyone's time, probably deciding wrongly (it's a coin toss) and no one will be better off.
The story of state protection from the books is wonderful, but then after 10 years and tens or hundreds thousands of dollars, everyone's just tired, annoyed, regardless of the result.
This state protection is just a shitty service.
I'm not trying to bother you.
I'm trying to talk with you as a friend who believes in your good intentions and supporst the work you're doing.
True. It is stupid, when you assume jb55 will be disrespectful to you.
But thinking trusting others would be stupid, seems pretty stupid. People who trust noone are only able to live quiet poor lives without social exchange.
This is why grinder was directly getting in contact with the relay owners instead of contacting the police.
And in the end everyuservice is only made for those who make use of it. So yes. Justice system is mostly there to protect wealthy people.
you are not my friend
I might be wrong, but I did not perceive this as him threatening you in any way. In true German fashion, he did what his attorney told him to, asking you to preserve the data of these incidents, surely for legal action against the mentioned user. Doing this requires him to put his real name there otherwise ist won't be accepted.
Is this a questionable ask towards an uncensored protocol that gives no guarantees for data persistence? Hell yes.
Telling him to fuck off if you don't want to get involved is perfectly fine, imo. But you do not doy people with their real names, ever. Just my 2 Sats ofc.
Just for clarity. I guess this lawyer did not use any form of encryption to protect the content of the message?
We could have done better, but that requires voluntary honoring of a code of conduct. **If someone sends you an e-mail you don't like, you should just ignore it.**
Freedom isn't meant to just be everyone behaving like an asshole. It is supposed to be _rules without rulers_, not an existence mired in chaos and devoid of trust.
Are you requesting us respecting your decision to not respect others privacy?
Exactly.
An email is something private that you send to someone trusting that person honors your quest for not publicly disclosing their name. Jb could have just ignored or declined via email. It’s an asshole move to doxx someone and it has nothing to do with censorship resistance just being human and respect.
exactly 😂
Free @ralf doxx his fren the grinder Wtf will. Bother someone else . You run a business. You must respect privacy. This makes no sense. This isn't about you. But it is good that you are showing your true colors in how you handle other people's privacy. 👎
dude is asking me to censor stuff from my relay, he doxxed himself because I publish all my takedown requests.
it doesn't affect us all lol retard
i publish all my takedown requests. It’s an asshole move to use legal threats against a nostr relay.
I disagree completely. I would hope all Nostr relays be completely transparent with all takedown requests and legal process.
Sending this request is not in good faith at all. There is almost nobody using Nostr. There is no “reputational harm” accrued by a spammy account calling you names on Nostr. This reeks of an attempt to bog down Nostr accounts in fear and bullshit. If you are worried about being called names, please use a pseudonymous account. This user apparently did, and the only reason that they have a potential for reputational harm is because they engaged in frivolous legal threats.
His "ToS" are clearly that he will publish everything like any other KYC/ID service. But he should have made it like the pros. "Oopsie the email got leaked..."
That said email is shit. It's public by default (ironically like Bitcoin).
GDPR (another story) is the biggest bullshit ever produced. Since it got introduced surveillance increased by a factor of 1000. Data got leaked by a factor of 100 and people got killed more by a factor of 10.
All non sovereign, non decentralised, non open source, non private digitalisation projects would be illegal if GDPR mattered.
Streisand effect
Are you a fed @TheGrinder ? Or working for a 3 letter agency? Lol what a 🤡
Why are all of you acting as if email is NOT a public means of communication?
The lawyer should have used a reasonable encrypted means of delivery. Signal, Simplex, Whitenoise, Deltachat,... or at least encrypt the email.
This discussion is ridiculous. You don't send a postcard and expect the content to be treated as confidential.
God you're a fucking prick
unfollow me then retard
😂
@jb55 Is not a trusted party. That email is not private. And if Will is a trusted party, he is free to disseminate the information as he sees fit. That's how data works.
"Try" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Also, it would be more akin to the "anonymous" person sending a photo of themselves to an untrusted party and expecting people to not share that photo.
He compromised his own privacy by sending an email to an untrusted party.
The e-mail was originally sent to Will's company, not his personal account. Therefore it is a trusted third party.
Yo, the relay is public he can preserve the events himself. He doesn't need the relay runner to do it.
Also, he doxxed himself by sending an email to an untrusted party from his own name.
Do you know what a trusted party is?
Yes
Okay, so the previous statement is incorrect.
I trust plenty of people. Not so much strangers on the internet.
I'm not sure why you believe that. Unauthorized public disclosure, of someone's identity, can often become a serious legal matter. You can't publicly disclose such info without their consent. Which is what Will did... 😑
Can all be true. But this is no defensive argument of jb’s actions. Only an offensive one against Grinder.
I think everyone knows, that grinder commited mistakes in sharing identifying information with jb.
But I would not blame him for that. Rather incentivize to do better. Use an other email for nostr related requests.
Lol, "unauthorized" by who? Who "authorized" him to send the email? When you send someone your personal information and not bound by confidentiality (legal or moral) you have no obligations. This is so cucked by state cowtowing I hardly believe you actually think this.
If someone is trying to intimidate multiple Nostr devs with legal action into an attempt at censoring, and they make the mistake of revealing their irl identity, then get "doxxed", it's hard for me to feel much sympathy...
Ironically their actions are bringing way more attention to something no one knew or even cared about
I would argue, that we trust thousands of people we never got to know in everyday technology we are using.
Trust can be but does not have to be an active decision. Often our actions implie trust in a way we could not say it clearer in words.
I disagree. The issue isn't the email, the issue is not redacting the name on the email.
As ive explained elsewhere, other plebs know my real name and address. Unless there is some really weird and extraordinary circumstances, I don't ever expect any of those plebs to publish either of those bits of information.
if it didnt... we would all still be on twitter
none of this matters. by first principles... "the law" is just a fuck job
you just raped me
True
doxxing someone during pride month. that’s pretty gay
🙄 Jeezus! By @@TheGrinder, dude. Uhhh, anyone is allowed to send e-mails to a public company e-mail😑. And, so what, if I'm talking about state privacy laws? They're actually very relevant, given the siutation. This e-mail was not sent to a person, it was sent to Will's COMPANY. Ya get it? Whether you have a contractual agreement with a company, or some other entity, privacy protection rights, under common law, dictate that TheGrinder could take legal action, if he felt inclined to. Will, himself, is retarded for posting that (especially on a decentralized social media client) because now anyone can see the evidence and i wouldn't be surprised if TheGrinder already saved a copy of Will's post as potential legal leverage. It's what i would do. Tort of public disclosure of personal information should never be taken lightly.
I still don't understand why you believe any thing you said. So, let me break it down for you in a simpler manner:
1. TheGrinder sent that to a public company e-mail address, not a personal one — he did nothing wrong.
2. As the owner of this company, Will, under common law, violated the privacy protection and anti-doxxing laws (yes, there are formal state laws against it now, especially in California and some other states) of , potentially, TWO countries by his disclosing of public information without the sender's consent.
3. What's worsens Will's case, is that he did this intentionally — not accidentally.
4. It's clear in the message, that the sender was not threatening Will or his company. He literally said in the e-mail that he would like to resolve this matter "without" immediate legal action. Yet, now, Will and his inclination toward arrogance have given TheGrinder near-perfect legal grounds to take said legal action whenever he wants.
5. Common law privacy protections are INDEPENDENT of any contract or formal legal obligation.
6. These laws are often treated as being INHERENT and, far more often than not, DO NOT REQUIRE any formal agreement, between two parties, in order to take action against the perpetrator.
7. Cases like this have been happening for decades. Where have you been?
8. I hope this better explains what i was saying🫡.
You are incorrect about privacy.
Common law is nonsense.
Damus is Canadian.
Grinder is German.
An extortion threat is still a threat.
The sender's email address is not private information.
Claiming legal liability IS a threat in an of itself.
Anyway, I'm not really interested in doing this thread again. Read my other replies if you want more clarity.
It's the opposite: a corporation publishing a private citizen's personal data on the Internet in order to intimidate and shame them and call in a mob. Also known as "doxxing".
Did you read the letter? He was requesting information so that the other person could be doxxed so that he could take legal action against them
It also follows up requesting the purging of the *other* persons notes
And ends with the threat of future legal action
I'm afraid you're about to find out why, despite being bruised and battered, kiwifarms remains online. Foreign laws do not apply to US businesses operating in the US.
When you deal with Microsoft, you deal with Microsoft Deutschland GmbH who have obligations to not let your data exit the EU and follow GDPR rules.
Yeah crazy they don’t see that this was a doxing request. Hypocrites
Hmmmm... I'll admit that common law is nowhere near as effective as it used to be. The e-mail address isn't, sure. But, the content is meant to be private. It is a threat, but it wasn't directed toward Will or any other relay operators. Idk, i just see all this from a different viewpoint. I still don't believe that doxxing was necessary, though.
If this is happening right now, how Nostr is supposed to survive any state level attack? This could be exactly that right now.
If you see someone trying to bring down Nostr, just ignore him because it can be staged exactly for that purpose.
Doxxing is the publication of someone's personal data in a public place, usually the Internet. It is not a private request to delete something from a relay.
I shouldn't have to explain that to you.
YOU personally identified a person who wrote to your business. We're not arguing over the request content. There is no hypocrisy here. You don't leak personally identifiable information like this. Redact the names addresses and so on. I just don't see how this is a debate.
Wipe your ass with the request and post an image of the skidmark covering the names and emails...
Doxxing comes from the word documenting. It involves compiling private, difficult to acquire information so as to expose someone to harassment OR LEGAL ACTION
When you send your real name in an email to multiple parties making demands that they, in the US, are legally allowed to reproduce, that is no longer private or difficult to acquire. If jb55 had compiled this information himself or received it from a malicious 3rd party that would be doxxing. Receiving it from the actual person whose identity has been exposed is not the same thing.
Yes, whether or not this is technically doxxing this is still illegal in Germany (as are a lot of things, like calling your obese politicians fat). But both jb55 and his company are not in Germany and the US govt has made it clear that they will not enforce Europe's speech laws
It is really not a core issue, if there is some country with written law to allow or forbid the action. To publish private information about someone, that are not in other ways directly related to this person for other readers is disrespectful.
And yes some people can say, that they do not agree with Grinders actions. But those are two independent actions. Disliking grinders actions does not mean one is fine with jb's actions. One can disqualify all wrongdoings. No need to pick sides or defend wrong doing in any way. Not even, when it is legal.
I have no plans to take action against Will, Seamus or any other commercial relay operator, never did.
However, I don't understand why he felt the need to do this. I've always been supportive of Famous even during the Prague drama two years ago. He could have at least given me the courtesy of removing that information from the txt file even after sharing why he decided not to do so elludes me but his call.
Frankly, the doxed name means nothing. It's very common in this country and worst case Fuckstr I'd going to start to molester some poor guy on Instagram or Facebook who has no idea what a nostr is.
These sorts of letters are designed to have a chilling effect on speech. Obviously this normally happens in the opposite direction where companies send individuals vague threats.
People post these letters to the Internet in full all the time.
Whether you agree with this or not, you should spread this around, because the next person to send one of these demands should expect the same thing
There is totally no chilling effect, when someone writes a private email to a relay owner. One can politly deny the request or accept it. That has the effect that everyone is chill. No escalation needed.
And I hope this has a chilling effect on people that thoughtlessly doxx strangers in the internet.
Yes, doxxing is terrible so he could politely accept the request to preserve any logs, records, metadata, connection information, account information, or other identifying information associated with the above public key and related events
False dichotomy
You can deny it without doxxing the sender, it’s called the reply button.
This is not doxxing. Scroll up
Honestly, that's good. It's not worth your time. Still, what he did violates the whole foundational ethos of Nostr, to begin with.
It is not the discussion, if someone should log data, follow a delete request or whatever. Since whatever the choosing is there, doxxing is unnecessary to do any of these options.
Therefore it is a seperate topic. Doxxing itself is the wrongdoing. Just like murder is wrong doing. It is not more or less wrong, when you found the murdered person is great or bad. Murder is a wrong doing anyway.
Doxxing is potentially the end result of the compilation of that data. It's genuinely mind boggling to me that you're all happy with a secret attempted witch hunt (that someone could be doing to YOU right now) & censorship demand but not ok with someone reposting an email
I find it funny. For you an action could lead to a doxxed personality is more severe, than directly doxxing someone.
Is kind of like it would be more criminal to watch a horror movie than tourturing someone. Because maby it could leat to someone creating the idea to torture someone.
Because, as I've said numerous times, this wasn't doxxing
Just because you want willfully giving up your anonymity by emailing a bunch of people your real name to be equivalent to someone having their anonymity ripped from them by underhanded means, doesn't mean it is
Yes. But this is a misunderstanding.
It is a completely apt comparison because like the 2A the 1A is a crucial right that has a virtuous place. When you're making accusations that can result in affecting someone's freedome (baseless accusation resulting in real legal consequences MEN WITH GUNS) or even just losing business opportunities or money. That is an act of aggression to consistently harass someone like that. So he invites aggression in response. It's disingenuous to act otherwise.
You don't know what everyone reading the posts does/does not believe. All it takes is 1 person believing it for it to have dire consequences for The Grinder. It's not ok. It's an asshole move and he invites aggression for it. I also lost a lot of respect for Will on this. He's being obtuse seemingly intentionally and virtue signaling. All he had to do was redact the name if he wanted to go public or he could handle it offline. Pretty faggy grand standy behavior @jb55
You're being seemingly intentionally obtuse so that you can grandstand about how much of an absolutist you are.
If someone did this to someone in your family, you would not like it. You would take action. Even if you "don't like it" there was a way to handle it like a man offline. Very gay and embarrassing behavior to post publicly like that.
Imagine thinking i care what your regarded opinion is
Good. You exposed what a self aggrandizing retarded fag you are. Keep it up.