That's why they hit samurai first, need those tracking abilities

Or create entities that gobble up a lot of the market and encourage custody for another large swath to erode the key holders. Works the same as confiscation, allows for paper products, avoids the need for negative feedback of tax, etc.

It’s an interesting thought experiment to imagine if your government gave you 30 days to move your cold storage bitcoin to a regulated custodian or risk penalty, and more importantly, never be able to spend it. For those of us with a significant portion of our net worth in cold storage it would be a hard decision. There is a path where you wait it out and hope the laws become more favorable at some point but I can’t say what I’d do in that situation. I’d obviously hate to do it but I’d hate being a lot poorer too.

Thank you @Lyn Alden I always appreciate your thoughtful replies! I always wrestle with the question of if bitcoin does too well it’s just as much of a problem for those that own it because surely there will be consequences. Suggests to one there’s power in numbers and best way to prevent this outcome is radically increasing public awareness and adoption of Bitcoin through self custody. Can the govt track Bitcoin is the question you raised. Feels like all the KYC and legal requirement to share transactions almost surely makes sure all the new purchasers are tracked. Hence the only people who can “HODL the gold bars for 40 years” are those who really kept strict anonymity during their HODL’ing Rest must rely on political measures to ensure safety of their assets.

Hmmm... So basically anyone that has purchased BTC from an exchange and put it on their hardware wallet without obscuring it is screwed if the gov was to selectively tax BTC...

I IMAGINE THE GAME BEING PLAYED WITH THE ETF’S ID GOING TO TAKE A BIT OF TIME TO FULLY PLAY OUT AND WHILE THAT HAPPENS THOSE IN POWER WILL MASSAGE WHATEVER PLAN THEY HAVE TO ATTEMPT SOME TYPE OF TAKEOVER… I WOULD POSIT THAT ANOTHER GOOD QUESTION IS…WELL BITCOIN BE RESILIENT ENOUGH TO FIGHT OF WHATEVER ATTACK THEY THROW AT IT? IF I WERE PLAYING 5-D CHESS…. AND IF I HELD THE POWER AND THE PURSE STRINGS….I WOULD CONVINCE THE MASSES THAT BITCOIN HAS SAVED THEM AND KEEP SELLING BITCOIN ETF’S BACKED BY NOTHING, NOT PROVING MY BITCOIN BACKING IE…COINBASE AND THEM RUG AS MANY AS POSSIBLE IN ORDER TO TURN AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE AGAINST BITCOIN… THEM YOU COME IN AND SAVE THE DAY WITH YOUR CBDC OR WHATEVER AND CONTINUE THE FIGHT…. I MEAN BITCOIN WINS IN THE END NO MATTER WHAT BUT DO NOT FORGET… THOSE THAT WIELD THE GREATEST POWER ARE THOSE THAT MAKE KINGS AND PRESIDENTS…THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME PEOPLE HOLDING THOSE TITLES!!! BITCOINS SHOULD NOT BE COUNTING THEIR CHICKENS BEFORE THEY HATCH… BITCOIN NEEDS TO BE IN THE HANDS OF THE MASSES FIRST!

Complying with such an order will not save you from being a lot poorer. They will take everything so you might as well hodl.

Just coinjoin it

This is why we all had boating accidents. And why we must eventually become our own nation. Or create the privacy tech to enforce the equivalent of statehood. Software is better than guns. But we shall always have guns as a backup.

Important… thank you

Push us hard enough, and we'll simply concentrate on developing the parallel economy. Sure, to start with it will be difficult to purchase closely regulated/taxed things like real estate, but I don't expect a bunch of highly motivated paranoid crypto anarchists not to rise to the challenge. I say bring it on.

It would be a shame to see a country come to these measures. I would be forced to consider casting my vote by foot

Great thread

Not sure how much political pushing can be done when most people at the time will be no-coiners who would happily vote for taxing the “rich crypto bros.” Assume it’s coming decide whether to live free or die.* *bend the knee and pay the tax

It’s relatively easy to track but it is also easy to lose your key and find it back much later

Also interesting to consider how the game theory may play out at government level. Government is made of people who, some of them at least, will want their share of Bitcoin. They may not have strong incentives to push for confiscatory laws.

It's the oposite. Handing everything over would make you a poor sucker. Keeping your Bitcoin would let you store value long term.

Reminds me of top 2007 commodity peak. Envious of the profits of bhp and rio, Australian government came out with superprofits tax on resources companies to appese Australians. Marked the top as well, prices started crashing with the GFC, let’s see how btc will run and how they react.

So Monero is the way to go?

That's why creative hiding places were invented... 🤣

Wise words! The government that taxes beyond a certain tipping point will probably be voted out in due course. HODL through if you can. The tax revenue raised will diminish at a certain level as people will not comply and black markets develop.

This is why the Bitcoin ETF is picking up nickles in front of a steam roller. You get price exposure, but it's capped because at some point when the USG is ready to debase for real, they say, "naw, we're done letting this thing run - we'll cash you out now at a price of our choosing."

do you think saylor doesn't know this at all, or is he just playing dumb for some justifiable reason?

@Lyn Alden Just last week during a press conference an Italian deputy Finance Minister said: “Since it’s spreading more and more, WE PLAN to increase capital gain tax on Bitcoin from 26% to 42%.” 26% is the ordinary capital gain tax here, but they’re still hungry as you can see. Last year it became compulsory to “declare” bitcoins owned to the Italian IRS. Don’t know how many actually did it…

Great message, @LynAlden

Tax can be ugly, e.g. taxing unrealized gains. Surely no government would be stupid enough (although some are stupid enough to talk of it).

@Lyn Alden I still have yet to read a story of a regular person getting penalties for not turning in their gold. In many, many years of viewing people share this story, I'd like to see that other side of it.

We’re also talking about the Great Depression. There was a need for quick liquidity, so if the government was “handing out” cash I’m sure it was gladly accepted for small trinkets of gold lying around. Let’s put it this way, a migrant family living in a New York City tenement building isn’t sitting on bars of gold.

Great education. Thank you

Mother-in-law's mother, coming over from Germany (through Ellis Island) smuggled gold coins in the hem of her dress. Family still has them, may have to convince them to convert to Digital Gold and no seeds to sew except for the 12 in your head.

Welp, that’s making me rethink the “conventional wisdom” (if it’s old enough to call it that) of holding a KYC stack alongside a KYC-free stack….

💯

Generally agree but please stop pushing the "gold confiscation" hoax. An Executive Order by POTUS only applies to the Executive Dept. of the federal gov't. The President cannot make law by fiat.

This ones for you, Mikey

40 years? Pfff ₿itcoiners are hodling for 1,000 years.

Fear, not enforcement. Can they track Bitcoin better? Doubt it. But watch out for 'selective taxes' - the sophisticated way to strangle freedom 💸

Do we have a good ol’ Bitcoin Voter’s Club in the world yet? A good, concise list of what to vote for, where to vote for it, with a social layer on top to help communication?

The question is who has the resources to not be a target while the lawsuits play out. Rough times potentially.

Basically, it is about confiscation, using an unjust law to create fear of its non-compliance and its illegality. That is coercion in every sense of the word. Monopoly of violence in action.

so glad Monero is a thing

There is another nation you can join right now... When truly understood and properly appreciated, you'll find it to be a highly decentralized GLOBAL ORGANISM (NOT an "organization"), yet one with a highly effective LOCAL presence. Citzenship in this nation is open to ALL, regardless of individual history or credentials. Neither past failings nor accolades have any bearing on acceptance; the only possible barriers to entry are entirely within you, the applicant. Immigration is completed and citizenship conferred without payment or initiation formalities, and is immediately effective upon your recognition of, and swearing of fealty to, the blessed and only Sovereign. While not a requirement for entry, "Proof of Work" is expected of every newly minted member of this nation, and will follow quite naturally if there has been an authentic "red pill" experience. For those who patiently hold to the course, virtually unlimited patience and grace is available as you learn the ins and outs of being a good representative of the King and his policies. However--before joining--individuals should soberly consider the potential consequences of repatriation. All other nation-states adamantly hate the citizens of this new nation, because their way of life exposes the tyranny, corruption, and utter bankruptcy of every other presently existing nation-state. This has historically resulted in the persecution, imprisonment, and even murder of vocal members of this distributed, national community. Has this brief made you curious? If you're interested in an investigative trip down the rabbit hole, please read the following material and ask questions:

PeakD

'The Kingdom of Jesus/God/The Heavens' - My Library Shelf | PeakD

A collection of articles challenging prevailing views of the relationship between the church and ersatz civil government... by creatr

Thanks @Lyn Alden for your hands on reply. Cool to benefit from your knowledge

@Candid Wolf throughout history, when governments felt their power slipping they often reached for the people’s wealth. And gold has been a prime target. In 1933, through executive order 1602, American citizens were required to turn in their #gold for devalued dollars, with severe prison penalties hanging over those who didn’t comply. But that’s the catch: enforcement was based on fear, not resources. Something that is a lot easier today. Tracking individuals would have been too costly. So it was the shilling effect that did that job. Banks and institutions had no choice but to comply, which was enough to break liquidity in the gold market and render private holdings practically useless. Compare that to today: governments like Israel are considering restricting precious metal ownership under the banner of f’inancial crime prevention’. Typical Israel right? History repeats itself but this time the strongest money man ever created today is in what the state can’t touch, unlike gold. @lynalden is right. This isn’t just about confiscation anymore. The bigger threat could be selective heavy taxation or hidden barriers that undermine financial #freedom. Bitcoin yet remains our hope. Here is a graph about the topic. I had posted on Twitter before getting suspended. I updated yesterday. I hope you find it insightful.👇🏽

@candid wolf @preston @jack @npub1dmcd...utjm @Lyn Alden Two people (that i could find) were prosecuted under E.O. 6102. One was indicted (United States v. Levy (1934) and one (Frederick Barber Campbell) was acquitted on a "technically". Executive Orders are not intended to apply to anyone outside of the Executive Branch of the government. The defence justified the latter case under the "trading with the enemy act" and was dismissed. Most prosecutions were brought (still only a handful), not under FDR’s Executive Order, but under the Act of Congress, "the Gold Reserve Act of 1934." this act lead to the issuance of Executive Orders 6260 and 6261. The International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA) Amendments of 1974 This act, signed into law by President Gerald Ford on December 31, 1973 ,(along with E.O. 11888) effectively repealed the Gold Reserve Act of 1934. The IEEPA Amendments of 1974 restored the right of U.S. citizens to own and trade gold, ending the prohibition on private gold ownership that had been in place since 1934. Unconstitutionally (in my opinion). Here's a fun fact about the 6102 order: It exempted 1. Customary use in industry, profession, or art: This provision exempted individuals who used gold in their daily work, such as artists, jewelers, dentists, and electricians. 2. Gold coins and certificates in an amount not exceeding $100 belonging to any one person: Individuals were allowed to retain up to $100 worth of gold coins and certificates. 3. Gold coins having a recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins. This is why you can often find gold eagles were made into jewelery (necklaces and bracelets) in antique shops and coins that were deliberated back dated to meet the "collectors" . We will always find a way!!!

mixers don't address taxes?

#Fear is used so often to control populations.

201 on how gold was confiscated: View quoted note →

Well said.

Based on fear. Based on fear, fear, fear. It was not a dictatorship but..... it worked Deepening in these issues would be of interest, wouldn't it?

#DontRiskItBisqIt @Bisq