Replies (149)
BSV shitcoin experience.
its not tradition its experience
Because you are conflating two different accepts of this issue. It is not about the work involved or the skill. It is about common sense reasoning and listening to the community. It is a nonsensical argument. Then, you are putting in psychological manipulation tactics into the mix as a red-herring. Come on, you can see this right?! None of this would have happen if Peter Todd would have just left OP_RETURN alone! We just want OP_RETURN to be left alone! That is all and all the mess goes away.
why would people who know what they are doing listen to people who have no idea how bitcoin works. "listen to the community" is not a desirable objective when its been taken over by social contagion and emotion.
Luckily, many of them don't engage much on social media. If they did, they would be very frustrated indeed. I for one am very thankful for their efforts. They actually do save humanity. Seems like it is always the fate of heroes, to be misunderstood until long after everything has played out.
I hear you on this! However, it is very evident raising the limit of the OP_RETURN will cause even more bad things to happen. One does not need to be an "acclaimed software engineer" to understand it's impact. Common sense (Bad people will do bad things), reason (80 is less than 100,000), and history (BSV) can prove it to be so.
if noone is out here defending them then misinformation grows. it's also very time consuming to refute nonsense all day. I literally have been spending all day doing just that and I doubt I have made any impact. I probably should stop wasting my time and just go back to building.
You spend one genius-hour to refute two minutes worth of idiot-time, often on someone who won't listen anyway.
It's good to choose one's battles wisely. (I stopped engaging in the debate almost completely, after doing my part trying to bring some sanity back. But I just can't watch you battle on without helping at least what little I can.)
sjors is awesome
Cry me a river. All actions have consequences and everyone has to take responsibility for their actions. People who don’t know a thing about code have put their life saving into bitcoin and they have the right to be upset if they feel it’s being tampered with unnecessarily. Listening to what people are saying would be a more productive than playing the victim.
what are your contributions to bitcoin?
I’m a node on the network.
running a node doesn't give you expertise on how to engineer the system, why should anyone listen to you?
I’m I lesser than?
Nobody said it would be easy to work on the most important open source project humanity has ever undertaken.
Who’s telling anyone to listen to me? Am I not allowed to have an opinion unless I’m a technical engineer? Are his saying Bitcoiners only matter if they wrote code?
you can have an opinion but the value of your opinion will be basically zero unless you have put in the work like everyone else
you're just confirming what I'm saying
That’s a pretty fiat mentality.
you must be new, this has been bitcoins culture since day 1
"I deserve attention even though I haven't put in the work" is fiat mentality. bitcoin is built on proof of work.
I’m not new. And why does that even matter? That’s literally the attitude most of us are trying to get away from.
Now you sound emotional. Who’s looking for attention? I voiced an opinion and you got triggered because apparently I’m not worthy.
Yes, as Am I.. But I sane enough to run core
Most seem completely clueless, i doubt any read that.
Just so I don’t get out of line, please let me know what the hierarchical order is when it comes to voicing an opinion. I guess all bitcoiners need to know their place.
That’s great. Everyone should run whatever they like. It’s not east coast v west coast. Nothing wrong with choice and options.
you shouldn’t have to say what you have done to contribute in bitcoin to mention an opinion.
Apparently you do. Who knew?
With respect, instead of lapping up the technically incorrect slop of the YouTube influencer-class: maybe people should put in the work to begin to understand what Bitcoin is and the very basics of how Bitcoin works BEFORE converting their life’s savings.
With respect, I don’t think that’s how it went for most people and I don’t think that’s what Satoshi tried to create. If we’re saying only the people who understand bitcoin from a technical perspective should get involved then we’re saying that 99% of people in bitcoin shouldn’t be in bitcoin and then we don’t have a bitcoin network.
Thanks for allowing me to have an opinion. And thanks for letting me know that unless you contribute code your opinion has no value. #plebs
I don’t think everyone needs to be a software engineer, no. What I don’t know about code could fill volumes. I’m trying to catch up, a bit every day. We should all be working to improve our skills and technical knowledge on a consistent basis.
It’s been quite rewarding not having to ask my son to bail me out every time I get stuck on a technical issue. Many won’t put in the work and maybe they’re not ready for Bitcoin. That’s cool. Sovereignty is hard and people are soft.
Core Devs are implementing the same changes that created the bitcoin cash fork(the Bitcoin cash blockchain is full of child porn and malware we already know what's going to happen)
“Defend the network”
With respect, we've already seen what happens because the same changes were already implemented to Bitcoin cash fork.
Core are just going to create a new fork, a new spam coin with a blockchain full of childporn like bitcoin cash
yup, slowly turning into Idiocracy thanks to knots tards
It's not core vs knots.
It's spammers vs Bitcoin.
What core are doing will probably end up creating a fork like Bitcoin cash.
Allowing child porn on the blockchain honestly only makes sense as an attack against Bitcoin, trying to make node running illegal, trying centralise control
It makes it hard to take you seriously when you say that.
We've already seen this play out before.
We've already seen the blockchain get forked for this exact same reason and now core wants to do it again.
Obviously the majority of bitcoiners do not want to host child porn and malware, that's why Bitcoin cash isn't popular, the blockchain is full of garbage.
Also utility coins were invented so that we could use blockchain for other shit.
Bitcoin is money, not somewhere for you to put your monkey pictures or child porn or malware or memes or whatever else.
You can put that shit somewhere else. Simple
lots of no named bots in my mentions, who the fuck are you? go away
Oh no, the consequences of their own actions! Ahhhhhh!
defending Bitcoin against retards like you. consequences is I want to buy them a drink
Do you truly hold the opinion that only code contributors should get to decide how bitcoin is shaped into the future? Like the huge number of people that are invested in it and have helped bitcoin achieve its current valuation are just completely disposable and any dev that submits code is instantly more correct and has truer and higher virtues and couldn't possibly be wrong about anything?
You might be bloody clever JB, but you're proving that does not automatically make you wise.
yes I believe that, because it's clear if you haven't looked at the code you are likely dumb af and shouldn't have an opinion on how the code should be structured
After you’ve mastered the tech, you need to go to an Ivy League school for seven years and get a PhD in economics & become respected in your profession
Then, you have to abandon all of that, and become a crank Austrian economics
Warming up to the idea that there’s a political layer before the technical layer
Shinobi not so... Biased as fuck and showing very questionable motives of late.
me and shiobi haven't always been on the same page but I was hanging out with him in Hong Kong and we definitely agree on this one somehow
Bitcoin wont be “abandoned software” anytime soon. As long as it’s worth something it’ll be worth someone’s time to fix critical bugs. The last 10+ years there haven’t been any meaningful changes to core that were completely necessary (segwit / taproot were not necessary). If there a major disincentive for people to tinker I think that is a very good thing.
Because when you contribute to core you become an Anointed one. Your sins are absolved, your soul is purified as no negative energy can permeate your overpowering aura.
If someone holds their life savings in bitcoin they've effectively contributed all the value they've created for others that that savings represents. You may think the opinions of relatively non technical users don't matter but that's just showing us how naive and arrogant you are. The code is nice and all but without people staking their life savings on it its just fancy theoretical software on someone's computer, normie bitcoiners are what make bitcoin valuable not Peter Todd's amazing coding skills.
imagine applying for a job and refusing to learn how any of the systems work, then complaining that your coworkers are corrupt.
I hold my life savings I Bitcoin and I see knots tards as a mostly harmful phenomenon to the overall goal of Bitcoin adoption
You're entitled to your very poorly thought out wrong opinions.
says the literal nobody who probably lives in their parents basement jerking off to evangelion
🤔weird and creepy response, not surprising from a kiddie porn enthusiast
glad you figured out how to reply
Node runners opinions should be listen bc they are the ones running the SW. Technical expertise is useless if no one will run your code. Bitcoin is a project for and to humanity, and that is the current problem with Core, this same feeling that they know better and that they don't have to listen to anyone and even mock them. Funny bc someone like Luke, Jimmy Song and others do know how to engineer the system and still Core doesn't care.
You’re talking to a person with the emotional intelligence of a 5 year old who happened to learn how to write code. Don’t expect too much from him.
I am clearly a real person with a name.
The way you responded to my valid concern is a huge red flag.
I just lost all respect I have for you as a dev. You're clearly a bad actor that wants to stop Bitcoin adoption.
That is the only explanation for why you'd support turning the blockchain into a child porn hosting service..
It's gonna happen soon with Bitcoin SV.
So don't store those OP_RETURNs. These are not needed for the validation, excluded from UTXO set...
Just some thoughts... not hate.
- deal with legal threats
What are they doing that could land them in court? Actions always have consequences. A shit poster online saying they're going to take you to court online isn't a threat (If they're even real and not bots). When the paperwork shows up then it's a "threat". Maybe they should consider that they could be on the wrong side of the law/issue.
- deal with threats from social media brigades run by 2023-era "bitcoin maxi" influencers.
Again what threats? I only sasee the odd over the top person, most people just don't want non-monetary stuff. Sorry to hear if people or bots are sending threatening messages, it's bullshit. I hope you don't consider the people who understand a lot of topics, including incentives and technical details and are willing to put their thoughts out there, noise. Seems that core devs aren't really listening to some of the deeper arguments. I see a lot of pro-core devs/people saying its a bunch of noise, but then they don't even counter the points given. Just because someone is new to bitcoin doesn't mean they don't understand or haven't done their homework.
- soul crushing and time consuming rebasing and code review
What? You choose what's worth doing. How does this not apply to any other project, especially project that is voluntary? There is always grunt work to be done, but you do it because it's worthwhile.
- have deep knowledge of complex cryptographic protocols, engineering and economics
Devs didn't need to have this before? I would hope understanding the project deeply would be a requirement when you're making decisions for it, especially when they can have large consequences for a monetary network of people's savings. Many of the core devs think people commenting on these issues need to be super enlightened, so why wouldn't the core devs need this too? We all have things to learn, that's why we use others to give feedback.
I can understand being new and helping out with minor fixes and features, but when it comes to policy and far reaching changes, you'd better know your stuff and trying to figure out how it's going to effect things in the future.
We have an incredible pool of talent, so use it.
Your contribution to Bitcoin seems to be a focus on centralising the blockchain.
You understand that forcing node runners to spend more money on storage, while also opening the blockchain up to illegal content is not going to help Bitcoin right?
Like seriously why?
Can you give a single reason for why you support this?
All the people arguing against it have valid reasons and their reasoning makes sense.
So far the only reasoning I've seen for supporting core is to accuse others of being pro censorship.
Well yeah, actually I do believe that child porn should be censored.
Bitcoin is money, put that garbage on a different blockchain
Yep, just like only the best Formula 1 drivers and jet pilots ever get to sit in the hot seat. Never mind that fact that 99+% of hoomans never get a chance to see if they have what it takes.
No doubt you had absolutely no cultural or class privilege that helped present to you the opportunities to become the coder you are.
To state that anyone that doesn't currently code is dumb AF is ignorant beyond belief.
I don't have an opinion how the code is structured. But every Bitcoiner that has paid real world blood and sweat to buy into this asset (where the fuck to you think the value comes from?) and intends to keep holding it deserves an opinion on how code changes effect how bitcoin functions. I, like many of us, bought into it well before this change was proposed.
I'm so uninformed on the Knots vs Core debate, can someone break it down for me.
Matt has many other videos on this topic, but that is just the last one that contain information about the change / problem.
Core Devs started this latest fiasco by “let them eat cake”.
I'm not the one calling people retarded just for having a different opinion.
Basically Core is removing options for Mempool management and increasing the OP_Return size limit. Knots is an alternative fork of core with the ability of Mempool management and the ability to adjust OP_Return to zero.
People behind knots are making this situation look way worse than it seems. (We have bigger fish to fry.) and saying that CSAM is going to be on every node. Even though ways to put the arb data on the chain has been possible even before this whole debacle. Simply because Luke and Mechanic are making alarms of issues that aren't there or highly improbable. Knots is wanting to go the route of censorship with making certain transactions invalid. Also claiming Bitcoin is going to die if we don't run Luke's fork.
While some people in Core are being stupid and way to naive in how to handle these things. Even some Core devs sucking on the dick of big shitcoins trying to use Bitcoin for their own gain. A few of them are on a high horse saying that only those who know how to code should have an opinion. While also making it fair game for Shitcoiners to try to ruin Bitcoin for their pump and dump. (Cough) Citrea (Cough)
Also Knots is a fork of core mainly maintained by just Luke, all the heavy lifting is being done by Core. I wouldn't recommend migrating to Knots due to Luke's OPSEC history. But if you are building a fresh node then run Knots if you want to have more tools under your belt. I also would say that Core needs to stop fucking with user options on how they want to run their nodes. Theyre just there to fix patches and help fine tune things that people want, not for them to decide what's good for Bitcoin.
My two sats is to keep running an older version of Core and wait for the dust to settle on this. But if you really want to be active in this run Knots to manage your Mempool the way you want to. Me I am happy with my version of Core I am using.
Sounds like a really good time to go anon
They dug their own grave on v30. Antagonizing the other side for voicing concerns doesn't help your case. You come off like an emotional child in these replies.
Sounds like it’s time to sell
View quoted note →I understand what you’re saying but if bitcoin is gonna be a tool for ALL people then it has to be understood that ALL people won’t know how to code. Having contempt for people that don’t is wild. It’s the same as central bankers looking down on everyone and saying ‘you don’t understand how our system works so you don’t get a say in it’. That type of attitude is snobby and elitist at best. I’m pretty sure that most people that use the internet don’t know what the code looks like but without the people you don’t have an internet. You just have a few people playing in their own sandbox.
Zero arguments as always.
With the xz utils / jia tan exploit pressure was put on the maintainer until they got their person in charge.
We have come to the point where ur clearly supporting a CSAM network infrastructure. I wish you all the worst.
Yes very sad that you gays have pushed it this far. Core devs have done severe damag3 to their owm safety.
Wait until we start validating child porn…then things get REALLY legally troubling…or has that been the Trojan horse all along.
I have nothing against core developers but they failed at reacting to the topic in such a bad way that this is what happened.
defending the network is here an assumption
> I hold my life savings in Bitcoin
Uh oh.
"who would want to work on bitcoin at this point?"
me
"what's the point?"
there is no point. i do it to spite my enemies.
That appears to be exactly what he's saying.
“Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.”
Nobody forced them to work and they are all paid money for it.
Solution set: Cancel Core V30 and retire. The threat is more than legal at this point.
I hate this victim mentality like core contributors are paupers. Why work on it?
If they're smart, the average Core dev has tens of millions in bitcoin at this point. They should protect their biggest asset. And regardless of how you feel about this particular filters issue, they made numerous unforced errors with the way they rolled out and communicated the change.
I hate to say it but this is why corporations use project managers and product people. Insulate engineers from public facing comments. Putting your foot your mouth can wreck a project - even FOSS.
Then go home. I run knots anyway
yes because me and the 100s of people who have been contributing for the past decade just all of a sudden wants to destroy bitcoin. People need to give their head a shake.
knots will too, and there’s nothing anyone can do to stop it. The knots people sure want to make this a hot button issue eh? Then ya’ll are becoming a serious threat to bitcoin. How about shut the fuck up?
Already allowed by the protocol rules on both knots and core
no i wont, because i don’t want bitcoin to die in the hands of retards like you
At the end of the day I thought anyone could run any version they want. The point is no one group deciding anything, be it core, knots, miners, traders, governments, etc. What’s nice about bitcoin is that eventually the problems will flush out and be addressed. Everyone attacking or insisting one way or the other is fighting an unnecessary battle. Knots guys run knots, core guys run core, LTS guys run v24, some weirdos running version 1. And why can’t code suggestions and contributions be anonymous or psuedononymous? People can run sandbox versions, have AI look at it, and use what they want from it. It’s open source, run and modify whatever you want.
Am I missing something?
Tbh this sounds like an epic responsibility description.
Odyssey for devs with cojones only.
Strawman
What exactly have you contributed to Bitcoin code? I'm sure you contributed less than op return nackers such as
@Adam Back and
@Luke Dashjr. Make it make sense. It seems you and
@calle have external motives to be honest. You guys are trying too much and not really addressing the ussue.
Playing the victim card is pathetic. The expectation that core devs can do whatever they want without any negative response from node runners shows how inconsequential you think Bitcoin is. This isn't your average, sleepy foss project with a few hundred users who all completely trust the devs. This is the most important foss project in history and the behavior of core recently has been unbelievably irresponsible. I don't condone the worst behavior, but sadly this will always be present on the internet. So either accept that reality or work on something else. And maybe try listening to your users instead of insulting them.
So which side is lobbying to make it impossible and why is your side working to make it easier and worse?
Couldn't agree more.
I didn't knots people cared about credentialism, but I guess thats fair. so here are mine.
there are ~1234 contributors to bitcoin. in terms of raw contributions mine would be 188/1234:
https://cdn.jb55.com/s/4104d140cd815d77.txt#:~:text=William%20Casarin
If adam has contributed he must be doing it under a nym since I don't see any commits from him.
my commits:
https://cdn.jb55.com/s/8b84ea34bec4caac.txt
I worked on usdt tracing and performance optimizations. I am by no means a frequent contributor, I mainly work on lightning tech.
things I've worked on:
core-lightning:
https://cdn.jb55.com/s/283cc3006988b7b4.txt
lnsocket - a C/rust library for talking to lightning network nodes
GitHub
GitHub - jb55/lnsocket-rs: A rust library for communicating with lightning nodes
A rust library for communicating with lightning nodes - jb55/lnsocket-rs
btcs - a bitcoin toy bitcoin script interpreter
GitHub
GitHub - jb55/btcs: toy bitcoin script parser/evaluator/compiler/decoder
toy bitcoin script parser/evaluator/compiler/decoder - jb55/btcs
bitcointap - A tool for tapping into bitcoin-core tracepoints to extract data in realtime:
Delving Bitcoin
Bitcointap: an strace-like tool for bitcoin ebpf USDT tracepoints
I thought I’d share this tool I put together, based off of @0xB10C 's peer_observer project. bitcointap is a rust library and cli tool for tappin...
opentimestamps: i put together the haskell implementation of ots, and built a suite of tools that work with them:
GitHub
GitHub - jb55/ots-tools: opentimestamps tools
opentimestamps tools. Contribute to jb55/ots-tools development by creating an account on GitHub.
I maintain the "bitcoin" nodejs rpc lib:
https://npmrepo.com/bitcoin
I've hacked on HWI and helped with a lot of the bitcoin-nix infrastructure.
I've also been around since 2010 and have a decent understanding how various parts of the codebase work, especially on the script side.
what about you?
You are like a middle school child, calling people retards because they opted out of Bitcoin HardCore software.
Children should not be anywhere near the most important code of our lifetime.
i call them retards because they are
Cry harder, don’t work on core then, fork it into some personal project no one uses and do whatever you want.
STFU? Found the jew that loves to diddle the kiddos.
your propaganda tactics don't work, sorry loser
Mr. Back's work is in the citations of the whitepaper and Luke got way more credentials, so do the other nackers who are in the top rows. I, unfortunately, only started on this journey in 2017, but I am constantly learning. I try to remain unbiased and wrote about the issue my thoughts. More nuanced approach would be appreciated if you are with the ackers.
Great. Then I'm a left-bell curve, sub-80 IQ bitcoin knots maxi now.
If reviewing code for #bitcoin is "soul-crushing" to you, that's probably a clear signal that you should step aside. stick to nostr apps or whatever actually gives you a sense of meaning.
Perhaps also it is soul crushing for you because you and the Core devs are deliberately violating established and necessary principles of mempool filters to protect our beloved timechain, against the clear wishes of our community. Maybe listen to that feeling inside and change course.
You make it sound like having deep knowledge is a burden. If it's not for you, please step aside and follow your purpose whatever it is
These idiots seem to be everywhere nowadays. Even on X they blabber something about porn then the joos. I had no idea the mental illness spread to bitcoin and nostr
Yeah most seem to be the anti-semitic nazi worshiping type
Not meant to discredit contribution , but you can’t just assume that it’s positive (though its intention almost 100% is)
that's nonsense
And, to be honest, I don't run knots, I run core 29.0.0 and intend to run it for the upcoming few years. I surely won't be upgrading to v30 any time soon.
i'm going in the opposite direction. I want more freedom not less, so I am patching my node to run without any filtering (libre relay)
You are so good in what you do .
Libre relay has been around for ages, you've been running that all this time? I would assume you were on Core
yes i run core, but i rebased libre relay and it wasn’t difficult so that made me impressed enough to try it
I have been very anti paternalistic filtering since the very early days of bitcoin, which is why i’m probably so anti knots since they want to add more filters not less.
I wish all well, I felt terrible sorry to hear that core dev get legal threats ! Thats not fair , after all the hard work and contributions to the development and end up like this .
You right . If things not getting better , who wants to
Work at BTC project at this point ?
I understand there's a need to relax the data carrier limits for new use cases but opening it up to the max block size seems like an overshoot. I want to retain the optionality, though I understand that, after block confirmation, my node will end up storing the data that guys like yourself relayed to the miners. It's a catch 22.
I am kind of mix feeling , though I never contribute to core dev due to my limited knowledge , I knew spam is annoying and having filter seems such a great idea . 💡 dilemma : to filter or not to filter
its just relaxing the filters to what is actually reflected in the protocol rules. The more divergence between relay policy and consensus rules and economic activity, the less accurate your node is when doing fee estimation.
Pushing contentious changes causes more contention.
> its just relaxing the filters to what is actually reflected in the protocol rules.
Which is the max block size.
> the less accurate your node is when doing fee estimation.
I never had a substantial discrepancy in fee estimates.
I don't think there are many new attack vectors introduced by these changes but still, as good practice, no upgrading to newer versions before they have been out for a prolonged time.
It surely will lead to a cleaner code, that I agree.
yes max block size, something you can relay today on libre relay and get it in into a block with 0 issues. its not done because its undiscounted and non-economical. people would use witness space for this instead.
In essence, it's not done because the propagation path is scarce. The more widespread Libre Relay nodes are, the more reliable and censorship-resistant the OP_RETURN data storage becomes in the Bitcoin blockchain. At 1%, it's niche and fragile; at 20%, it starts to significantly improve reach.
unfortunately this is not true. you get 100% deliverability with about 5 nodes
Given below is a try at unbiased assessment of the perspectives from both sides. A nuanced approach is key here, no need to attack and belittle each other.
View article →Only if they know a miner running liver relay and have him in their peer; oherwise, it seems not plausible.
miners do run with very few filters, because they are economically motivated to do so
😥
Given that Inscription based fees represent only a negligible (~0.1%) addition to miner profits after hashrate and cost adjustments, and with added risk of transmitting illicit material, miners might be more careful in accepting 4MB files for confirmation, don't you think?
are you asking if miners are going to start widespread censoring of valid transactions in bitcoin? i doubt it. even if one did another wouldn't. otherwise bitcoin wouldn't be censorship resistant.
No, they can easily not update to v30 or not run libre relay, but instead continue running v29 with their data carrier preferences and still be within protocol rules. They would thus be exercising their choice. If more become aware of this, the propagation path would remain niche and limited. It's their choice to make. Looking forward to seeing how this unravels.
you can't stop economically motivated actors from getting around it. its not hard to run libre relay over core or knots.
This is like claiming there's no risk/reward. For negligent upside and exceeding risks, they might choose not to. If most chooses not to, the propagation path remains limited, as currently. These are just possible scenarios, you might be correct to bet on human greed.
Are you going to start developing then? Or just emote the change you wish to see in the world?
One does nit have to call it greed. But it is the best bet, that a majority is intrested in a working businessmodel. And inclusive businessmodels offer more opportunity than exclusive ones.
I'm not what you called. It was waste of time reply to you anymore. I have been all in Bitcoin for many years now and changed to Bitcoin knots because you arrogant
i really don't care, go bother someone else
Pathetic
I set my filters to remove only monetary transactions 🌝
lol equally useless
Watch Matthew Kratter's Bitcoin University videos on YT on the subject matter. His is always goated.
Lmao bitcoin != core
poor opensource developer "team"
