Replies (176)
Funny stuff the new silent payments in #Bitcoin core got a taproot design very similar to Monero.
It's a natural response to the fathomless sea of shitcoins, but those that can withstand the nuance can easily see not only the utility of privacy-by-default Cryptos like Monero but also other pow altcoins that are testing different features, design philosophies and security tradeoffs with real world value basically on bitcoin's behalf.
Wanna know more about this
There are many dark points on monero ... It is unknown the pre-mined amount, it can't be verified like bitcoin. So it is not completely sure that it is not shitcoin, also if I have to say that it has his own because
I propose a new name: the church of Nakamoto and latter-day sats
Parts of the community can definitely get a littly culty at times
A security and a currency compared. Bully for you. 💯
The problem with this kind of thinking threatens the "only 21 million" philosophy and makes of Bitcoin just a part of a larger set of "cryptos" that imply effective inflation (anyone can trade in any currency they themselves issue).
The cult of Satoshi won't allow this, I'm sorry.
Personally I couldn't care less, since my goal is to create and acquire my own "means of production" and store value in any form that is not dependent on someone else's free will.
Yes, I will use Bitcoin and Monero because both are not inflationary. But they are only accessories. What really matters is real life value, not a number on a screen.
Rather be a technologist than a fanatic.
The toxic maxi viewpoint I just cannot understand. Shows lack of worldly perspective and stifles innovative thought. Ends up hurting the cause more than it helps. It is funny sometimes, but gets old and offputting rather quickly. Instead of seeing the good or potential in something, the immediate reaction is "shitcoin, discussion over".
Two Qs for ya about Monero
1. Are there any Monero wallets in FDroid? (i couldn't find any).
2. How do you suggest getting coins without going through a centralized exchange?
I looked into the protocol years ago and had to rely on cryptographers for the zero knowledge proofs because I don't grok that math (at least, not yet). I like the privacy claims, and would be happy to give it another go if it's usable.
2. Atomic swap on a dex from Bitcoin.
Long term privacy might not be as good as lightning so don’t do illegal stuff until you understand that better than I do, which maybe you do idk
You might need the IzzyOnDroid repo (you should use it anyway) but here you go, I use this all the time for certain purchases via Tor markets:
Monerujo landing
We are Gunther!
Looking at... Thanks ...
Monero has a tried and tested threat model and secure design. In Lightening, everyone always knows the recipient node. In Monero, no one knows anything.
Like anything security related it's never perfect and vulns pop up but by design it is very good for privacy.
The main way Monero transactions are unmasked is by sharing the same UTXO between CeX's, so if you must use a CeX, churn your coins (send to yourself to make a new UTXO).
That's about it.
DNM admins and vendors trust their freedom to this and the smart ones with good OPSEC have been operating for many years.
I would love to see Lightning support the same level of privacy but it's still early for LN on the privacy front.
Another great one is
https://exch.cx although they often get their XMR liquidity wiped out so timing is key.
Find KYC-free Services | KYCnot.me
Find services that don
is a great resource too.
Weird logic too. There's still 21m Bitcoin. Even if there was 10 billion XMR, there'd still only be 21 million BTC.
Monero devalues Bitcoin in the same way an armoured truck devalues a G-Wagon. Apples and oranges.
Zzzz
Good way of looking at it. I agree. I'd be very surprised if we didn't see enhanced privacy in LN in the future taking inspiration from Monero's design.
The primary difference between LN and Monero for privacy as a regular user is that the recipient node is always public on LN. Both sender and receiver are anonymous on Monero. So are all wallets and balances. The only thing the blockchain ever shows is "anon sent an unknown amount of money to another anon."
There's a lot of complex details regarding the design of the underlying cryptography as well, such as rings and decoy transactions. This makes unmasking transactions much more difficult because you don't even know what to target.
The
@Seth For Privacy link on Monero that's already been posted further down is a great resource to learn more.
Oh sorry my bad I didn't see that you responded to the comment specifically about blind spending in Bitcoin Core.
*downs some coffee* 😂
An actually relevant link: this BIP natively allows encrypted P2P data transfer on the Bitcoin blockchain.
I don't see any silent spending feature in Bitcoin Core itself, but I see a lot of positive building blocks.
Taproot could possibly be used to add signature rings to Bitcoin transactions since it is very scriptable, but this would be complex and require special support in wallets.
If there's something I missed here, I'd be happy to see it.
GitHub
bips/bip-0324.mediawiki at master · bitcoin/bips
Bitcoin Improvement Proposals. Contribute to bitcoin/bips development by creating an account on GitHub.
Let me actually be helpful now 😅
View quoted note →I like Monero, it's good and gives what it promises. But I can't stop thinking it'll be easier to add an extra monero-like-privacy layer to BTC (say, on LN or not) than to move all the credibility and trajectory Bitcoin has to Monero.
Take it as an opinion of someone who can only grasp the basics of the tech involved. I know it's way more complicated than what I just said.
1. All these wallets are on FDroid, can add their repository, or have the APKs available on their githubs. Also all open-source and self-custodial.
Cake Wallet
Cake Wallet: Payments Made Easy
Since 2018, Cake Wallet has provided a secure, seamless, and reliable way to store, send, and exchange cryptocurrency with confidence.
Monerujo landing
We are Gunther!
Stack Wallet | Open-source, non-custodial and privacy-preserving wallet for Monero, Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Firo, Epic Cash, Namecoin, Wownero, Litecoin, and Dogecoin
Stack Wallet is an open-source multicoin wallet for Monero, Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Firo, Epic Cash, Namecoin, Wownero, Litecoin, and Dogecoin
Anonero ***Tor only
http://anonero5wmhraxqsvzq2ncgptq6gq45qoto6fnkfwughfl4gbt44swad.onion/
Mysu ***Tor only
http://rk63tc3isr7so7ubl6q7kdxzzws7a7t6s467lbtw2ru3cwy6zu6w4jad.onion/
2. No-KYC p2p methods to acquire Monero
Fiat -> Monero
Bisq - A decentralized bitcoin exchange network
Bisq - A decentralized bitcoin exchange network
Bisq is an open-source desktop application that allows you to buy and sell bitcoin in exchange for national currencies, or alternative cryptocurren...
Learn RoboSats
Learn RoboSats
A simple and private way to exchange bitcoin for national currencies. Use RoboSats with Tor Browser GitHub Project Page
Bitcoin -> Monero (atomic swaps)
eigenwallet
eigenwallet - The Monero wallet for the future
***Still in beta [short tutorial:
https://tube.monero.im/w/aBqiCQUARipWGi72FAPgY5]
Crypto -> Monero (atomic swaps)
BasicSwap DEX
BasicSwap DEX - The World
The World
Crypto -> Monero (***centralized instant swap aggregators, but no-KYC, no-javascript, and tor sites available)
https://trocador.app/
Exchange | OrangeFren
OrangeFren.com compares instant exchanges, atomic swaps, P2P exchanges, prepaid cards and OTC brokers to find you the one with the best exchange rate.
Exchange | Intercambio
Intercambio.app is a privacy-focused no-KYC cryptocurrency exchange aggregator. Intercambio doesn
All these Bitcoiners seem to think Monero is great too:
"Monero is a very good privacy complement to Bitcoin" -Nick Szabo
"Maybe you need a Monero" -Michael Saylor
"For really strong privacy, Monero is much better" -Andreas Antonopoulos
"There's a lot of advantages to using Monero" -Matt Odell
"Monero is the only goddamn currency that's used!" -John McAfee
"Monero will be a champion in that space and we'll have a Bitcoin-Monero duopoly" -Max Keiser
"All fiat systems and all tokens outside of Bitcoin and monero (to my knowledge) have middlemen you cannot get rid of" -Adam Curry
"I would say Monero is not a shitcoin. I think it's a very innovative and new research project that works." -Max Hillbrand
"Monero; Just use it. Objectively it's better than Bitcoin [for privacy]...it's obvious" -Amir Taaki
"Monero is closer to our hearts than whatever Bitcoin is turning into today" -Samourai Wallet
"Bitcoin is the reserve currency. Hold it. Privacy coins are transactional privacy. Use them...Monero: getmonero.org" -Balaji
"99% of cryptocurrencies are complete and total garbage, but even among the upper echeleon of real ones, Monero is in the top percentile, so it deserves our respect" -Paul Sztorc
Amir Taaki omg i have been searching for his name for a while now to find me an article i wanted to read back, i couldnt remember it THANK YOU
makes two of us
wont disregard completely yet, but only as a tool and not as savings
It’s not a reasonable end stage privacy tool either. Using it would require an on chain footprint on both Bitcoin and Monero, and monero scales even worse than Bitcoin does.
People are free to do whatever they want but if people care about privacy and digital sound money they would understand the importance of a Bitcoin L2 solution.
thank you and noted ser
Monero‘s privacy is nice but its biggest feature is to not have ordinals 😏
OK you two, now you've gone and done it.
I now have a monero markdown file in my personal notes. I've started putting links in there as I read them.
If you see me add an XMR address, you'll know I've successfully got set up and am giving Monero its day in court.
Lol yeah saw your comment and thought a sats was funny wordplay with saints and the hardline bitcoin maximalists
I do think crypto and the ideals behind it is cool, just sometimes people get a little nuts in the community
* to clarify, sometimes a *few* people in the community get a little nuts. Maybe in response to the fact the world is nuts and they are over correcting. I think (hope?) almost everybody otherwise are well adjusted people
Can I be dumb and ask how to compare xmr and ecash? From a privacy and anonymity perspective?
I've always admired your ability to speak your mind without being a jerk. Always been a weakness of mine, even when unintended.
Bitcoin is a tool. A very useful tool. Probably one of the best (atm) tools. But I've been coding a very long time. Nothing avoids being replaced. There is no perfect software.
The values and philosophy behind Bitcoin is what really matters to me. Any system build on those fundamentals is something I can live with.
Privacy is an off-putting subject to me. The fact that I have to neuter my Internet connection and constantly play the "why the fuck doesn't this work" game with VPNs in order to keep some asshole online from attempting to fix me was enough I questioned my involvement in Nostr at all. I don't give a crap about Google knowing I like pimento cheese, or Amazon knowing I have an unhealthy addiction to t-shirts. I have no issue with Microsoft collecting data about my PC. I expect these things, and I use the conveniences granted by that data collection (yes, if I use an ad supported service, I would just assume the ads be relevant).
What I don't like is trying to use fundamentally worse software (SimpleX, Firefox, etc) *full time* for every single conversation I have with someone. I don't pay $1200 for a phone to reduce it to the feature set and convenience of a phone I bought 15 years ago. Then I scratch beneath the surface and find out the majority of these projects are funded by the same assholes I thought I was escaping.
There is toxic maximalism on a lot of subjects. People telling other people what they should or should not do without knowing the details of their complicated lives, their threat profiles, their needs... It all reeks of arrogance and hive mind behavior. It's not exclusive to Nostr, nor is Nostr especially bad in that regard. It's the whole Internet.
Thank you for being the person who shares the tools and benefits of using them so people can be informed, without making people feel stupid or small when they don't go as far as you do. It's one of your super powers, and why I always enjoy reading your posts.
</end of unnecessary wall of text>
That's a lot to unwrap. The most important thing, I think, is to realise that the Googles and Metas are not interested in *your* interests for social reasons, like people would be. They are interested because it gives them asymmetric power over a massive amount of people without them realising it.
To alter the behaviour of the so-called masses and the choices they make, even by a tiny fraction, is massively valuable to the companies themselves, but to state actors as well. And the way they get that power is by collecting vast amounts of user data accross the web. And making it incrementally harder to opt-out. That exact phrase "I don't care if X platform gets my data" is the product of a massive campaign against privacy, launched by Meta itself (back then called facebook), if I'm not mistaken.
If the personal loss of privacy doesn't trigger any feelings of disgust for you, I encourage you to think about the issue societally. Normalised data collection and KYC practices erode society at a deep level. It's a self-growing feedback loop of fear and polarisation. Do you want to support that or could you start being more mindful about it personally? Something to consider.
It sounds like you understand privacy quite well. That is, the ability to reveal selectively. I always get triggered by that "I don't care if they collect my data" rhetoric tho.
The code establishes emission rate.
It requires some mental gymnastics to call it inflationary.
You could call it "potentially buggy", but not inflationary.
Just don't get caught holding the bag.
I don't currently spend much bitcoin so I don't really have a horse in the race but if money trends towards one, I hope a better way to spend my money privately arises.
That's been the weakness I found in privacy education spaces and communities. When a friend wants to learn, I link them resources to start and read but I have to also give them with a caveat: everyone's threat model is different. It's good to know what tools are available, basic OPSEC, and use as needed depending where your current activities fall on the privacy spectrum.
I also warn them of the maximalists who will welcome a complete noob normie with "Alright sell your PC, you're gonna use TailsOS as a daily driver now and your phone will have no apps." It turns them off.
A lot of advice is too broad and there's now enough about threat modeling (though it's getting better). Gotta meet people where they are and sometimes, improvement will look different based on the subjects.
For some, running everything self hosted and not using any social media is a win. For others, simply tweaking some privacy settings and being aware they can turn off things like Location services and Bluetooth when not in use, is also a win.
Baby steps, so it's a more digestible step in the right direction and way of thinking.
As for me, like you, I'm also a compartmentalizer. I've tried many setups obsessively, reinstalled my phone and machine OS a dozen times in the past years, and compartmentalizing activities and identities is the only way that keeps me sane. In control of what I share and aware of data collection while keeping the private private and keeping a foot in that space to keep up with tools to enable privacy.
I like Monero. Although, not sure how much I trust it since its founder is an FBI asset now.
Yes, I saw all that unfold. But I don't believe it. When you're cornered, most people flip. It wouldn't surprise me if he still consulted with the feds despite "refuting it" on a Twitter post. Even Elon lies in Twitter posts lol. Plus, the whole reason this happened was because he seemed to be a unscrupulous person, charged with fraud...
For sure. I don't doubt the code, I doubt the person.
how many nodes are running? mining?
Disagree.
- Money wants to be one, so a multi coin world is very unlikely
- exchanges from BTC to XMR are single points of failures
- Lightning gives you privacy and plausible deniability, unlike Montero
- Trying to be ASIC resistant is a big bet, that might blow up catastrophically, and requires centralization of protocol development
- with the same level of txs of Bitcpin, running a Monero node is way more costly
here is a great resource
The market looks like it says otherwise.
the second one is about Bitcoin not monero
Nothing that I know of but pokkst is the guy to ask. I can see what he has to say.
Monero is for stacking and private spending. Monero is the only real currency that should be handled.
You cannot put the same savings in both Bitcoin & Monero. They are mutually exclusive networks. You can put the same savings into Bitcoin & have it on a privacy layer built on top of Bitcoin. This, plus Monero's higher inflation rate & the larger scaling challenges, is why it doesn't make much sense to hold Monero at all.
It's not about religious devotion. It's about the unforgiving nature of monetary network effects.
Become a monero dev then, follow what you want to build
Use tools that work best for you 🤙
Ava
me: monero is an awesome addition to bitcoin (it is), one for stacking, the other for private spending
the church of satoshi nakamoto of latter-day bitcoin saints:
https://image.nostr.build/201467dee3b429b7ae8dc42a8df002d6fa5d8f7bd997ece4f4c015bb4da2270d.gif#m=image%2Fgif&dim=360x360&blurhash=U7B%7By6JC00%7D%40MKIpPV-U%25N%24%23MxIo0Ls.%5EkI%40&x=7ca64596798d52d8d04e9a72fae20d32b7d94772c643af46a71cbdf5c551782f
lol. not saying this about everyone, love my bitcoin fam, but it needs to be said that the 'toxic btc cult' reputation seems well earned for more than a few of you.
it's generally the one's who just parrot blanket 'btc is the saviour, everything else is a shitcoin' statements, don't speak with their own words, link to sources they don't really comprehend, think nostr is private, only recently learned why they need a vpn on the internet and don't actually understand how all this privacy stuff works.
harsh? yes. so have recent comments been. bring it. love the free speech.
again this is not for most of you #plebchain. most of you have level heads and still love bitcoin. i am an avid bitcoiner, but i don't drink the cool-aid and ignore it's shortcomings.
bitcoin is about freedom. privacy is essential for freedom. it is complicated to have privacy on a public ledger. bitcoin is an awesome store of value, but it needs a 2nd layer for greater privacy and to solve the fungibility problem. lightning is maturing. cashu is also maturing. monero solves the spend issue now with privacy baked in on a protocol level. it is currency. it's meant to be spent.
#cybersecgirl #privacytechpro #bitcoin #monero
Well, now I'm curious. You've had some time with it apparently. So, what is the judge's verdict from its day in court?
Monero had no pre-mine at all. It's been fairly distributed since day one.
^~”Waste time on an altcoin that will trend to zero instead of working on Bitcoin.”
What time Monero's current inflation rate? They are on "Tail Emissions" now i believe
Exactly. Except I'd like to suggest one small correction: A multi coin world is about as likely as a multi internet world, with the added influence of financial incentives driving out any possibility of a separate coexisting internet. So it's not just "very unlikely"; in the long run, it's an absolute impossibility.
Another great resource for this is "Human Action" by Ludwig von Mises. And "The Bitcoin Standard" by Saifedean Ammous, of course.
Money is “winner take most” and the best money gains disproportionately.
I’m expecting Monero to lose usage over time because bitcoin is the better store of value. This reduces monero’s privacy because you have a smaller group to hide in.
This is why I believe we have no choice but to build our privacy into Bitcoin’s L2s like Lightning and federated ecash.
Oh dip, someone found an old post on nostr. Achievement unlocked. I feel like things fly by here so fast and then they hang around but [almost] nobody ever looks at them.
Anyway, I got a wallet and put it in my profile and that's it. No tips. Haven't tried to trade anything for XMR. Pretty antitclimatic.
Makes sense. Nostr is pretty lightning dominated right now. Sent you a little something.
There's a Nostr client being worked on right now for Monero that is Amethyst-based. Should be out sometime this week based on recent comments.
42.423ɱ | Nostr client for Monero · Monero Bounties
Nostr client built from scratch, with the ability to generate a simple Monero wallet, that you can then fund and use to "zap" posts using Mone
There's also a prototype web client:
https://anarkio.codeberg.page/nostril/#/home/Tokens are unique to each mint. Every time you leave a mint over lightning you reveal amount + destination to the original mint (a potential point of de-anonymization/reduced anonymity). You're also narrowing down your anon set the larger value of tokens you hold (ecash tokens have "buckets" of 1,2,4,8,16, 32...etc, increasingly fewer denominations exist the larger the bucket)
I read somewhere that you can just give the ecash token to a second mint and they can fetch the amount from the first mint.
In this way you could move funds between mints, and even spread funds around, without revealing your identity or amount held.
Has an unprecedented amount of insight into the chain and could assist the feds in deobfuscation techniques, etc.
I still stand by what I said.
Do you write checks from your savings account?
Monero's current inflation rate is lower than that of bitcoin. Check for yourself if you don't believe me.
The scaling challenges that Bitcoin faces, Monero mostly resolves. I say mostly because I'm a firm believer that in order to completely solve them you need the same security guarantees that bitcoin and Monero offer without the necessity to save all historical data. The dynamic block size though does a great deal to alleviate it.
People actually spend Monero. Network effects in the long term are in it's favor if your goal is peer to peer digital cash.
Bitcoin is not a better long term store of value than Monero. This is actually a much more interesting one than most arguments on this topic so I'll go in depth as to why.
In game theory, there's a problem called tragedy of the commons, and within that concept there's the idea of the "free rider", I don't know how in depth you dive into game theory stuff but you should understand it intimately because all networks involving multiple agents are pure game theory and you can't understand peer to peer networks without it.
Anyway, in Bitcoin, there's a cost to maintaining the network, without which a sat has no value whatsoever. This cost is entirely borne by those transacting in it, ultimately *the recipients* of it (just like how business taxes are borne ultimately by the clients of said business), and in this game, hodlers are free riders. This is, of course, assuming a capped supply of just under 21 million coins. And so, the incentive pressure is for everyone to become hodlers, you get to store your value at the expense of more frequent users, and the logical conclusion of course being that very few people transact and those that do pay for maintaining the security on behalf of those who don't.
The only possible outcome of such a scheme is that nobody transacts, miners don't get paid, they quit, security drops and the network, and therefore your holdings, lose value. This is, of course, entirely a consequence of the hard cap, and Monero on the other hand with it's tail emission means that hodlers pay through debasement of their holdings for their share of the security of the network that gives their coins value, and since it's debasement, they pay in proportion to the value they get from the network. In the long term, Monero is the better store of value counterintuitively precisely due to the tail emission, the thing that is cited as the reason it is inferior as such.
As far as the anonymity set (reducing Monero's privacy because you have a smaller group to hide in) this is not really a problem because of the fixed ring size, but it can be exploited in certain ways, but with full chain membership proofs which are Coming Soon™ to Monero, it will no longer be an issue.
This is only with fedimint and not cashu (as of right now; they keep open the option of building federated mints but it is not currently planned).
Bitcoin doesn’t need monetary debasement to be a better store of value.
Even if everyone were a hodler, there would still be transactions because hodlers need to eat too. (And businesses would need to buy supplies and pay workers. Etc.)
It strikes me as this line of thinking is looking to solve a problem that doesn’t yet exist. The mining industry is growing nicely and bitcoin is already the best long term store of value in the way it has protected people’s saving compared to everything else.
You don't understand Monero or why the math matters.
I listen and value argumentations and facts, I dont trust bitcoin maxis and, in the end, dont trust out of contex quotes of bitcoin maxis.
Critical thinking is an important skill. Thanks for sharing.
You don't understand clearly what I've told you. This is a system of incentives, a "game" in the parlance of game theory. The outcomes are very much predictable, I'm not guessing here or making an argument on behalf of something or against something, I'm only making an educated observation. You can take what I've said and try to understand it deeper, or you can default to defending something you're emotionally attached to, but the incentives are the incentives and the outcomes are predictable.
@mister_monster I blocked the OP long ago. Can't remember why, but I don't block unless there is a very, very good reason. Not saying you should, just letting you know this convo may be an exercise in futility.
Followed #plebchain
No monero's scaling problems are much worse than bitcoin's because of the txn size, block size, cost of full validation, & the lack of a layered approach. Combine that with the need go battle bitcoin's multiple economic & social network effects & monero is a really bad bet.
tldr: clear net monero protocol has a known open attack vectors
Lack of a layered approach? What does that mean?
What's the cost of full validation? You mean syncing the chain?
What's wrong with the transaction size, and what is the Monero block size?
Monero has it's own network effects, with blow and hookers.
0.86% p.a. like BTC
Who is telling anyone to trust anything because of quotes? We can go in circles argumentation and facts all day, but you just seem to have a massive Monero chip on your shoulder.
Please show us the full quotes to show how they are "out of context". You can't because they're not.
The last link is almost 8 years old...all issues have been long addressed with RingCT, enforced default ring size, etc with FCMP++ around the corner resolving any remaining issues with rings
Not sure what world you’re living on. In my timeline, we’ve watched monero continuously decline to irrelevance. I get why you’re upset. Every year fewer and fewer people care.
Lol oh I see call me upset to see if you can get a rise out of me.
Honest people don't resort to childish tactics, they approach about topics from a place of veracity and attempt to delve into them with genuine curiosity.
There isn't a serious bitcoiner that doesn't accept Monero.
Sure, we were all were interested in it when it started. But we don’t care anymore. I’m sure you’ll figure it out eventually too. Good luck!
Shopinbit and other real businesses wrote on X that Monero is used as payment more than Bitcoin + Bitcoin Lightning Network
That could be. It’s Gresham’s Law. People spend their worse monies first and hoard their best money. It’s the reason that, if I have both fiat and BTC, I prefer to spend fiat first. You always keep the money that preserves your purchasing power the best.
Broadcast networks don't scale.
Bigger txns mean the computational load, data transfer, & storage costs of securing the network are higher per txn.
As all of those grow (if the block size isn't small & limited) mining becomes more of a race than a fair lottery. In a lottery, winning is random based on % of contribution. In a race, those with more resources always win.
Or maybe because it's too expensive to use and to make a private transaction.. so they use it like a digital collectible as Saylor suggest
Are you not aware of the free market? Are you not aware that Monero (where accepted) is usually #1?
Just zapped you 42 sats. That seemed pretty fast and inexpensive to use. And lightning is fairly private for senders.
Thanks. Do you have your btcln node? Because in some countries custodial btcln wallets stopped to work
https://bitcoinnews.com/legal/wallet-of-satoshi-quits-us-market/
A monero fullnode selfhosted is easier to mantain
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BTC never meant to be "store of value" as it's main function, it supposed to be p2p payment, which it failed and became money printing machine for early holders and gambling for rest of the world.
Get better knowledge in finances in general and will find better wways to "store" your wealth.
I like you. You actually sound like you are not in a cult. Unlike most accounts here.
❤️
Though I partially agree with the concept, the problem is you'd still need to convert your Bitcoin to and from Monero and that touch point is really difficult to maintain privacy.
Also, for spending, you'd need a wide adoption, otherwise you'll be forced to spend to a third party who can facilitate payments from one currency to another and when said money cannot store value effectively, adoption is even harder to catch on.
Or am I wrong?
I’d rather see bitcoin push for native privacy guarantees without the need for another chain. Something like first class mixing for all transactions below a certain utxo threshold. Opt in by default at the protocol layer.
Btc needs to remain auditable, otherwise nobody will feel safe that additional coins haven’t been created beyond the guaranteed 21M limit.
With Bitcoin becoming a darling of the banking industry and Monero being delisted off exchanges, do you think the price of monero will keep falling?
Not sure what you mean. The price of Monero is not falling. "Monero price is +58.66% over the last year."
https://www.kraken.com/prices/monero
Delisting Monero makes it more private.
Ava
Delisting Monero from CEXs makes it more private by pushing users toward decentralized alternatives and the network remains fully functional and private.
View quoted note →
One thing I respect about the monero people is they typically bring more thought out and researched arguments to the table. Higher on average than the average bitcoiner, even if it is only a dozen spooks with multiple accounts 😉
I meant against Bitcoin. My point is that I don't think that trend will continue indefinitely. if Bitcoin increases 10x, it will be a sizable percentage of global wealth. It is bound to face head wind as it starts affecting the price of other assets. Attempts to constrain it to digital gold will open the way for monero to grow as P2P cash. long term I don't think the downward trend against Bitcoin will continue unless Bitcoin privacy increases and it improves as P2P digital cash. Monero is either the catalyst to force Bitcoin to remain relevant or the future.
Fixedfloat does Lighting - > XMR swaps. Couldn't be easier to maintain privacy.
I love bitcoin, but I don't love the dogma. People really aren't thinking.. Just repeating what they hear.
what does "opt in by default" mean?
Makes more sense to just swap back and forth between doggie coin and Monero via decentralized exchanges so you don't need a layer 2 to keep transaction fees low and you don't need to settle for such late Bitcoin ROI
Not reading this past the beginning since it starts out so weak
I have no idea what makes you think Monero and Bitcoin are "mutually exclusive" but it's very easy to swap Bitcoin and Monero with each other
ecash run by glowies that are more focused on gaslighting than blending in
xmr seems not "run by" anyone but stewarded by devs who are either non-glowie or competent enough to look non-glowie
You don't have to hold it for long, you swap it with other currencies as a channel to anonymize the other currencies through
that's a bunch of statements on nostr predicated on the reader clicking a YouTube link?
"The market" thought AMD was going bankrupt a few years ago lol
Gold and silver and doggie coin should be used too imo
Why miss out on doggie coin ROI?
I guess?
What is money ? Cash or assets ?
not interested in trying to time the market
What does that have to do with it? I just wouldn't skip stacking the asset that's had the strongest ROI of any I know of in the 11 years it's existed
i dont believe in the fundamental use case of doggie coin
so at some point it will languish and die
and I would have to sell it before that time to reap any ROI
"time the market"
It clearly doesn't, Bitcoin maxis often have it even worse to where they can't even handle the idea of using Monero
How do you "believe in the fundamental use case" of Bitcoin but not doggie? What reasoning could you possibly have for that? I seriously can't imagine your train of thought there. It's like saying you "believe in the use case" for a pony, but not a horse. There would have to be something about the horse that makes it worse than the pony for the same purpose, instead of better, but there isn't anything obvious.
no significant number of people are going to choose doge over Bitcoin.
if they want a cheap and easy MoE they will use Monero.
I know you're not a chat bot but you're acting like one. I don't know what "cheap and easy MoE" is but it isn't a response to me saying it doesn't make sense to ignore the asset with the highest ROI. Monero has underperformed Bitcoin in the same time period, not over performed it, so "cheap and easy MoE" clearly isn't maximum ROI, it's a random and confusing subject change.
Not sure why autocorrect can accept "underperformed" but not "overperformed" on the first try. That type of thing is annoying when nostr doesn't have edits
Would also edit to recognize the mention of ROI isn't directly the post being replied to here, it's just that the ROI was directly mentioned in the context so it doesn't make sense to randomly bring up whatever "cheap and easy MoE" is as a reason using the strongest-performing currency isn't a valid use case for one's choice of currency
you dont understand the conversation.
i dont care about doge because i dont see the use case.
the SoV usecase is already occupied by Bitcoin. its absurd to think anyone will choose doge.
and there's no plausible case to be made that doge will become a MoE either.
so no usecase.
but i know that gambling is fun. knock yourself out
oh you mean monero?
it already has pretty good name recognition and they will learn how to get it p2p.
10 more years.
it will move faster and faster as bitcoins lack of privacy erodes its censorship resistance.
1. How do I not understand the conversation?
2. I already asked how you see the use case of Bitcoin but not doggie coin. Your response sounded like you have not noticed me mentioning doggie coin's ROI, even though my whole point has been that you shouldn't ignore the asset with the best ROI. Now you're repeating the opinion that you don't see the use case of doggie coin, so I ask again, how do you see the use case of Bitcoin but not doggie coin?
3. What do you mean about it being absurd to think anyone will choose doggie? Are you saying "will" literally, as in future tense, as in people are done adopting it now? Or are you saying "will" rhetorically, as in you can't believe anyone has ever adopted doggie coin and you can't handle thinking about its market performance compared to Bitcoin?
4. What is MoE and what does it have to do with anything I'm saying?
5. When you say "gambling is fun" do you mean something I'm not getting, or is that just a weak gaslighting attempt?
This seems like you don't understand that most Monero users don't stack it, we swap it with other currencies and hold it temporarily because its supply isn't as auditable as others
1. you dont understand the conversation because you dont seem to understand that SoV and MoE are generally accepted usecases. Selling in the future for fiat ("ROI") is not.
2. if I have to explain the usecase of Bitcoin for you, I'm not interested in this conversation.
go do your own research elsewhere.
3. Im saying people en masse will nkt keave bitcoin and move into using doge for anything. thats should be obvious.
4. MoE is a usecase thst might cause USERS to adopt one thing over another.
5. Seeking fiat gainz (ROI) is gambling. Its a popular pastime.
"Bitcoin is a great store of value" is mostly said at the top of a bull market (and by people who think BTC offers privacy).
When you think about it longer, having a publicly visible bank account is a pretty stupid idea and it is not a good store of value as soon as the governments use its public nature to tax you directly for your holdings - which they can monitor.
Also, imagine a KYC data leak from a big exchange with withdrawal addresses. Would you wanna hold BTC when every criminal in the world can know how much you hold/held and with whom you transact - and where you live?
Is that a great store of value?
People are just too myopic to see that coming. Maybe laser eyes make them blind.
its a simple question of trust.
in the early days of Bitcoin
most users swapped just enough into Bitcoin too
1. I still don't know what MoE is but ROI is return on investment, not a future trade, and exchanging currencies isn't called "selling" in the English I'm used to, so this explanation of how I don't understand the conversation is just you using a couple terms you don't understand and one I don't understand, but it doesn't get me any closer to seeing something I'm supposedly missing about the conversation.
2. I didn't ask you to explain the use case of Bitcoin. Again, you said you don't "believe in" the use case of doggie coin, so I asked you to explain your position, since you do believe in the use case of Bitcoin, which appears to have the same use case but with a tighter supply cap in exchange for the horrible tradeoffs of worse transaction speed, worse transaction affordability, and potentially worse ROI.
3. The way you rephrased it here doesn't sound like you're clarifying that you mean people are suddenly done adopting doggie coin now. It sounds more like the other option, where you can't believe anyone has ever adopted it and you don't want to think too much about it.
4. So when you said "cheap and easy MoE" you meant "cheap and easy thing that might cause users to adopt oke thing over another" but what about people who want maximum ROI instead of a cheap and easy reasoning for their choice? It still seems like you're refusing to grasp the basic point here.
5. Again, ROI stands for "return on investment." I'm not sure where you get your ideas of what it means
*one
I don't get what this means
If you're saying Bitcoin went as parabolic as it did just off wallet dust and temporary holdings, with no serious stackers, that doesn't seem true
It sounds like this all boils down to you confusing ROI with some kind of trading strategy
It's basically just the measurable results of any attempt to convert present value into more future value
Definitely return on investment
ROI just means
you buy a thing at a price point
you sell it at a different price point
you time that sale so the difference is the highest positive number possible
its gambling and i dont have time for that.
people USE Bitcoin for stuff.
MoE is "medium of exchange"
ie they buy shit with it.
nobody USES doge for anything.
your entire "use" is simply getting more fiat in the future.
which is fine,
i just personally dont care.
So you're saying this whole conversation boils down to you misunderstanding the term ROI.
You have it wrong. Buying something to sell it later is called "flipping." ROI is just the measure of results in any attempt to convert value at one time into more value at a future time.
And people use doggie coin plenty. Just because Bitcoin maxis run more online stores and stuff doesn't magically cancel out the existence of the doggie coin ones, for example
yawn
another crypto bro who thinks a USD number is "value"
cya
and I already addressed this point at the very beginning of this increasing hellish thread.
you just didn't understand.
View quoted note →I didn't "just not understand," I told you I didn't know what MoE stood for and it didn't seem relevant, but you still kept going back and forth with me about it without explaining it until the end.
Whole thread would have been easier if you just explained what you were trying to say and didn't reply on me trying to guess what MoE stood for and what you thought ROI meant
I didn't say anything about Uncle Sam Dinobux (USD)
Why are you acting like a chat bot?
What does USD have to do with the context you're replying to?
*rely on
jfc dude
ROI is denominated in USD
all prices are dominated in USD
quit trying to seem clever.
In your last reply you were accusing me of thinking a USD number is value, now you're saying you believe you can force me to denominate everything in USD. Which is it, moron?
Your follow list is full of dollar brained fuckheads and you're the one acting like one here. If you followed me, you'd know I don't denominate shit in USD. I denominate things in doggie coin, but that doesn't work when comparing crypticurrencies, so I denominate cryptocurrency ROI in precious metals, as seen in any posts I've ever posted about the topic, such as these, which I'm posting as njump links because one of them seems to be having a hard time loading in nostrudel -
🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit (npub1wa…6u3l2) on Nostr
Short Text Note by 🇵🇸 whoever loves Digit (reply)
Fixed https://image.nostr.build/5319c5cd5e10e45e6c45b6d2a6f445fafafc7a7522302cd0361661523e6be37b.png #bitcoin #dogecoin #memestr (I am sorry for po...
you can personally denominate goods in whatever you like.
its got fuckall to do with anyone else.
the Unit of Account for the world is USD.
that doesnt change because you do division.
You're the one that accused me of thinking a USD number is value, and then tried to tell me "ROI is denominated in USD" like your own obsession with USD reflects on me.
Why are you so incapable of admitting fault?
i know facts are hard.
its very simple.
ROI is measured in USD.
*you said that is an increase in value.
*i think worrying about ROI is fiat gambling.
You measuring ROI in USD is your problem, not mine.
You gambling for USD is your problem, not mine.
Snap out of this bullshit trance. Learn to admit fault.
youre like a tranny that insists people use their pronouns.
sorry but facts matter.
You're the one that brought up USD, not me.
You're the one insisting ROI has to be calculated in USD, not me.
Are you a closet trans and projecting about that now too?
I still don't understand why a VPN is needed. I truly don't get it unless you mean a VPN at your house you have for when you're out and want to shit post. Can you help me understand?
Do you know what’s happened to Fluffy Pony and Cold Mountain?
Medium of Exchange
He did finally explain in the end, as I said.
And people use doggie coin as a medium of exchange all the time, that's the point of it, it's a currency
Just that unless you specifically chose to opt out, the default behavior will be to mix your low threshold transaction for privacy.
that's nice.
I've just noticed that XMR to BTC / BTC to XMR is actually the most popular pair on FixedFloat.
It's not ideal but it does help a lot.
It's useless. Fixedfloat has all the information about swaps.
Yeah, that's in the 'not ideal' part. I was being polite.
The top three mining pools controlling 50-60 percent of the hash rate would be my first concern.
Well, the Church of Fluffy Pony is doing exactly the same to Ethereum, Solana, DeFi, and memecoins, failing to admit that Bitcoin itself is the oldest memecoin.
Try being completely bankless with just BTC and XMR, it's very hard. Now, other ecosystems like Ethereum and Solana give you permissionless self-custodial access to stablecoins, trading, leverage, prediction markets, governance, unique usernames, non-Nostr-based social graph solutions, and Spasm-powered forums.
As a freeman, I don't limit my freedom with religious crypto bs, so I use all of the above.
Monero - payments
Bitcoin - conservative savings
Ethereum - DeFi, NFTs, voting, usernames, Spasm
Solana - memecoins
Obviously our alignment on this is implicit in my nym
You've made this extremely difficult to read with the way you are sharing it and replying to the shared posts and whatever but from what I can tell you live in some kind of bubble where USA is the only country and nothing else exists. You do understand other countries exist with their own currencies?
Lol it reminds me of when I was working at the bakery and an American tried to pay with his USD money.
I guess making your cash so fragile is probably good for inflation.
These things are not assets they don't create or hold inherent value.
They are currency.
I know a guy in real life that uses the dogecoin like for tax avoidance type stuff, he uses it to buy gift cards, gift cards for pretty much anything, grocery shopping online games utilities etc.
But they'll always go up due to being deflationary in the long term + undervalued during early adoption
I hope that new layer two privacy solutions can now be developed on Bitcoin, which would carry the strong decentralization and security over to a privacy currency, perhaps even nominated in BTC itself. I'm following the development of ZK proofs on Bitcoin, projects like BOS and Sovryn, for that reason. Until then, you may be right that Monero is the privacy solution. But Monero struggles with the fact that it cannot rival Bitcoin's decentralization and network robustness.
Exactly, that's what I mean.
