Replies (73)
Onboarding will improve when there is a proper key manager for nostr or its integrated in to other key managers. The criticisms about nsec are totally fair for noobs, they don’t want to learn about how identity on nostr works before they even get on nostr but if they join and have a good experience they’ll probably be willing to learn some basics post hoc
creating the culture of Nostr
View quoted note →I have to partially disagree. People should not have to understand the underlying tech to use a product. Most people are not even aware that JSON exists. If they have no technical background, why would they even try to understand it?
I really like the idea of nostr, but even as a technically capable person, I found the current apps cumbersome (unfortunately).
It could help to teach concepts like "moderation works locally" but I don't see why users need to understand that this is due to the underlying architecture of relays.
I am truly excited about nostr, but I believe there is still a lot of work before broader adoption could happen.
Adoption comes after having great patience. Don’t push, pull will happen towards Nostr.
I think this leaves us with 2 options.
Either A) We educate new users about the basics of Nostr, to get them aqcuatented with key managment and how things will work.
B) We abstract away as much as we can initially so users just think they are using a normal web app until they leter realize what makes Nostr different.
I think that route B is easier for board adoption, but, it will be very important to build things in such a way so users can
"Opt-out" of custodial key managment solutions once they have spent the time to get a better understanding of how nostr works. What
@PABLOF7z has been working on will help onboarding immensely imo.
How to handle key management on mobile, other than:
- nsecbunker (buggy)
- installing a new browser and an extension (ux black hole)
Genuinely curious what the options are
I agree with this a lot.
There are particular properties that nostr confers that other way of creating apps do not.
What these properties enable is what should be the value prop’s focus when describing nostr apps to new users.
You can’t get away from describing nostr to do that, but, like
@rabble said, the nostr dot com approach is not good either and each app/use-case needs to figure out how to describe what’s relevant/special on its own.
So true.
Exactly. The reason I am still using nostr but many other people I purple pill quit is because I know what it is and why some weird bug happening but they don’t.
I have a personal favorite workflow for this.
Create an app that is only for nsec creation and profile editing. That is good looking, simple, and has 3 slides of onboarding.
Apps don’t need to create individual profile creation pages, they just always link to that one app.
This way, roughly all new users go through that profile creator app no matter which app they get purple pilled with.
💯
Agreed… it’s like asking people to pay with bitcoin without teaching them about it.
It's honestly kind of disheartening. HN is the nerd crowd and if *they* have a bad reaction to this stuff how do we expect normies to even get close?
I completely agree with
@fiatjaf here. That’s why we decided to make our main tagline “Join us on Nostr”. All app labels talk about Nostr account, etc.
You are not joining Primal, you are joining Nostr.
View quoted note →Amazing how many misinformed comments there. Vomit news always delivers the most toxic know-it-all nonsense anyone could ask for.
Okay 🤙🏻
Can’t it be both? I reserve my right to sit on the fence about this
if users need to understand the underlying technology to use a thing, then the thing will never catch traction. normies users don't care.
What an original take.
"Normies" are smarter, they can learn.
My grandma never used the internet, my parents use it and vaguely know the concept of account i usually do the initial setup and login and that's it, I ofc know and also know about private and public keys, many ppl i know also know about this either bc they are in tech, because of crypto or because of friends. People may not know how it works now, but in time everyone will.
Try Amber.
I wish Amber had a "default reject" policy though so I can prevent Amethyst from using it to decrypt things and whatnot.
Y combinator is not big daddy nostr but I agree let get rid of “login with nsec” from all nostr clients
Should be enter your email or write down this long password with a tool tip on why passwords are so looong
🧠👆🏼
I do not think there is any evidence whatsoever to back that claim up. People are stupid and lazy and do not want to learn jack shit to use social media. Period.
And they’re not.
Are there any nostr clients that do no mention nostr? I don’t understand the source of fiatjafs concern here.
I have to agree with the comments about the front page being a huge b!tcoin ad as offputting / poor first impression
Proof for this is to go to yabu.me and despite not knowing a word of Japanese, still being able to post and interact because you already know - as memory reflex - how nostr conventions works (nip-07, lists of relays, the + button, etc.)
Nostr in this sense is alike transit etiquette (following transit sings in other country), or if you like, like driving standard (whereas x is the puny automatic or self driving 😆 )
Surprising, considering you're the first and most popular girl on nostr - I'd expect a wider variety of topics 😮💨
Don't worry, I'm about to upload some hottub streams
People know how to drive cars, make bank transfers, use cumbersome stuff like Paypal. People even know how to do Bitcoin transactions or buy NFTs on Solana.
That's not even considering that many people do work and produce useful things for the world that you and I wouldn't know how to.
Decentralisation is the long term advantage but is the short term constraint and consequently nostr will take time to evolve because it will be expanding in all directions at the same time.
There will be winners and losers along the way and these will be decided by many factors, including plain old good luck.
Patience and perseverance will be key.
Awh shii. With baked beans? 🤤🤗
why is originality the barrier for legitimacy? I can just make one up for the sake of being original if you'd like.
"let's make it as difficult as possible. if they can't figure it out, then they don't deserve it."
did I do originality right? is my opinion legitimate now?
For anything to be mass adopted, it has to be easy to use and having to understand the tech has to be totally optional. Nostr can get here, but there is simply more work to do before the apps are really consumer friendly.
Nothing that can’t/won’t be solved, just may take a bit of time.
yeah, because pleasing people is the whole point of it isn't it, miss, what's your name? do you do golden showers?
Those circles don't necessarily overlap - people who are expert in one thing are not necessarily going to be skilled at others
unless there is a market reason to pull people towards change most will choose the path of least resistance
Yup. Thats exactly what I meant. And I have used both metadata before, and I love it, that’s why I think both of these could potentially work.
They will need some improvements, but this is a step that psychologically gives the user the understanding that my ID is not specially tied to one app.
I don’t know in what universe PayPal is cumbersome to use. I’ve had 10’s of thousands of dollars run through PayPal over the course of years and years. Never had an issue with a single payment. I use lightning for the censorship characteristics NOT for ease of use because that’s a joke. I also pay less in fees (aggregate) on many transactions on PayPal as I do on BTC.
Nor are any of the people doing any crypto things you just mentioned “normies.” People get so lost in the bitcoin bro culture they’ve completely lost touch. 99.9% of the world has never used *any* form on crypto, and most of them don’t care to.
Normies have to have Microsoft force them to update their computers. Normies reset their passwords via “forgot my password” three or four times a year and they set the fucking thing. Normies are not going to deal with a mile long nsec, different addresses for BTC and lightning, block times, fee fluctuations, etc.
Normies like stuff like the company you are working for does. Just custody their keys. Make Nostr no different than twitter. That’s what they want. They want twitter without evil space man.
They're called Schiff showers
😂 evil space man.
That's too long, sorry.
I’m not. That’s exactly what I expected out of you.
Agreed
Inb4 “TL;DR”, you’re wrong and you made bad points.
Your opinion is simply incorrect. “Normies” are dumb as fuck and regularly struggle to do all of the things you mentioned. It’s ridiculous to believe a habitual action like driving is on the same tier as understanding complex information. They are not even close to the same, specifically in how the brain processes them. One is a bodily action that can be practiced and transitioned into intrinsic memory (walking, breathing, etc), the other is information processing through extrinsic memory (formula, recital, etc). Not everyone has the capacity to parse complex information, but every human being has the capacity to drive.
Fr what kind of fucking reply was that? Out of touch.
I work in a position that requires me to help and educate end users every single day. I’m not fooled. The average end user trying to use technology is about the saddest thing I’ve ever seen.
I remember seeing Flare land on HN and seeing the responses.
My general observation of most nostr enabled services is that the UX SUCKS.
“Paste your nsec here or use an extension”, 9/10 that’s all you get. No explanation, sometimes not even a homepage to give context.
Why on earth should you expect a “normie” (hate that term) or even a knowledgeable user to use your service?
The implicit message you’re giving is “admittance by secret handshake only”.
The sheer arrogance of some of the people responding here is making my blood boil.
Nostr is a FREEDOM protocol, Bitcoin is a FREEDOM currency. If you don’t help people get in at the base understanding than how it can it GIVE FREEDOM.
Dunking on “normies” tells me you don’t GET nostr, you don’t GET Bitcoin. You treat like an exclusive club to make yourself feel superior.
Rant over
too many long winded fame hungry responses to this.
just read it, and do it instead.
🥱
This is why I’m taking a different approach to most of what I am building into Nostr. Building from the Normie direction towards Nostr. Not the other way around. I learned long ago during the dotcom days to baby step people into tech. If it’s too overwhelming, they will walk away.
I don't get your point. Are you saying normies are dumb and incapable of understanding Nostr?
That's interesting. What are you building? Can we see a link?
This ☝️
Nostr's brilliancy is it's simplicity, companies can easily integrate with nostr and build on top of it without anyone's permission or worry to be shut down.
We must just keep using building and improving, the rest will follow.
Every time I check nostr I find new cool stuff people are building.
Are these “normies” in the room with us right now?
Well, there are smaller items but the larger one is my media business that has had Roku and Apple TV apps with films and music videos for years. The control panel for artists to add media is old school user/pass but also Nostr login for those who want it. I have typical licensing deals for those who want that but offer Lightning tips for those who understand it. The media itself uses my own api backends. Content upload data is database stored for now but I plan on dualing that with a Nostr kind soon. I also added a new PWA recently with Lightning addresses and QR codes. I’ll slowly add in zaps too. I’m purposely trickling in Nostr features too not confuse the artists who I’m working with and from my own experience the new ones I meet.
VersusMedia - Live streaming indie films and music videos
Watch independent movies and music videos for free on our Roku, Apple TV, and PWA channels.
Not at all, I ranted too much so the intention was lost.
If you’re going to post a Nostr service somewhere like HN or any other non-Nostr aware place you have to expect that they will criticise. You hit “login” and you’re greeted with a pattern of authentication you’ve never seen before. Yes it can be googled but as a user you would expect some level of signposting to where you can learn more.
you can't give somebody freedom dumb fuck
freedom must be taken
Lets call them post importance nugget suckers.
FAKE NEWS: I call it OAuth-like..
I just typed "I call it OAuth-like because it's a name broadly familiar that reflects what this looks like" and then realized probably only developers use that term.
I'm highly technical, a Bitcoin maxi, and I understand Nostr. I come back every 3 months or so and it's still a nightmare to use, nevermind setup. I'll come back in 3 months. Primal is by far the best client I've used, but it's still awful to use.
Somebody hit up Kanye or Trump or whoever is being cancelled next that is super high profile and get them on board. Those guys are nobs imo but they have the attention of the masses🤢
UI helps but also people need an impetus to take up new tech at least for those outside of the early adopters. A viral event that gets a lot of people looking for alternatives to Twitter or other pop social media. Things like Canada banning content is what I mean but even larger. Whatever UI improvements can be made for these people will help conversion but you need an influx of people also.
It'd be great if they had the attention span to...
You can definitely showcase Nostr internals and still have a great UX.
Teaching Nostr is the key to adoption.
View quoted note →You can definitely showcase Nostr internals and still have a great UX.
Teaching Nostr is the key to adoption.
I try to explain pubkey cryptography again and again. This doesn’t click with non-techies. How can nostr? With hashing and even signing involved?
Try starting from the relay side: "if you publish your content to a bunch of servers and people also read it from a bunch of random untrusted servers, how can you be sure it was written by the correct person?"
After they think for a while you can just say cryptographic signatures solve that.
My biggest gripe with Nostr for now is indeed the need to submit your private key to sign in to apps. I haven’t followed Nostr development closely but why isn’t message signing the one and only way to log in?
“A bunch of servers” is already too much probably. “One server” seems to be the limit of understanding. But I guess I should try that simplified contrast more: Twitter has one server, nostr has multiple.
To non-techies of my age I tell: it’s like BitTorrent but for E-Mail.
Even if not technically correct (non-P2P), but they tend to know what a tracker is.
@miljan said it in a really nice way last week. Permission-less is a very powerful word.
