Replies (94)
absolutely. algos don't have to be evil. they just should be open, transparent, and offer user choice.
I don’t see an issue with algo’s you can control/define. Or even some apps defining the algo for their app especially if there’s a choice of apps if you disagree with said algo.
No, thanks I don't want it.
I don't e
want algorithms. I follow hashtags and people.
The nice thing about Nostr is if you like algos you can choose that.
100% agree
Gm
Hope more choices will be there
We need reddit style algorithm
Decentralized and democratic, not shadowy and arbitrary
⚡⚡⚡❤️❤️❤️
Yeah, hashtags actually seem to be working better than any algorithms so far
What are the trade-offs of algos vs DVMs?
Dvms can be used for algos, do you mean algo relays vs DVM? If so the big advantage to relays over DVM is that relays are a live websocket
algo / no algo switch if they decide to implement
The power of the algos. 🤔
pls algo gods, feed me
I’d like algos on #nostr if users can turn them off/on and set the parameters. It could be helpful to catch up with important notes after not having logged on for a few days.
Maybe a lot of the people coming here actually do want chronological feeds. I know that's what I actually prefer. A smaller follow list in chronological order. Both could be catered to of course. Or a chronological feed of a smaller list of people. But you're right. However even when clients do implement them, they likely won't be the default. And for it to catch on, a big client needs to default to this algo. The chronological sub feed for YouTube exists and is better for seeing the actual content you're subbed to. It works better for most people than YouTube's home page. But the default home page is how 90% of people use YouTube.
The people who remain on nostr (1% of npubs who tried nostr) have self selected for this chronological algorithm
Optionality good.
100%, algorithms are CRUCIAL, they aren't the enemy.
The idea of not having algos in Nostr because "they are bad" is like trying to build a "better web" back in the 90s without search engines because you know Yahoo was censoring stuff.
Its about having CONTROL over the algorithm, not belligerently thinking people can drink the 10,000 firehoses worth of global social media without any sort of filter or weighting mechanism.
View quoted note →I have to post all of my *best* content at a reasonable time or else it goes to the wind. Well, it goes to the wind most of the time, but if I’m looking for some validation and dopamine don’t post your best stuff at 11pm.
If I don’t get any engagement in the first 15 mins the content might as well not been posted.
I shouldn’t have to do this.
Good morning ✌️🧡
On Nostr, algorithms sort the notes you want to the top of your feed.
On platforms, it's the notes they want which will control your behavior.
A lot of Algorithm Derangement Syndrome here 💯
Primal has algo, how's that faring?
One size fits all algo, not personalized like how algo.utxo.one does it
Yeah luck and timing play a crucial role in visibility and it shouldn't. Quality is what should be crucial. And to top it off, it's often a circlejerk boostfest of the biggest accounts. Everybody including me follow the big ones already, no need to boost them and drown us even more in their presence.
No.
Understood,.but how's that going?
Do we have any data on user retention across clients?
💯
utxo the webmaster 🧑💻
Gm,
Nostr sucks because it's mostly all chronological follow feeds without good algorithms. Good content is extremely hard to discover and will be missed most of the time.
There's a reason why every single social media service uses them - because that's what billions of users want
Only a community of bitcoiners can be so stubborn to look at our user retention rates and see their feeds go stale constantly and still believe that private keys will bail us out of inferior UX
Tell your client devs you want algorithms, they exist, they're just not implemented
View quoted note →
You can safely unfollow anyone on the Primal list of onboarding npubs. You'll see it anyways 😂
Don't default to an algo. Provide choice of algos.
My analogy of the chron timeline is it’s like a nuclear chain reaction. If you are a big account you get some neutrons knocked off when you post, and the chain reaction lasts for days as people boost your post, keeping your post near the top of the feed. The plebs might get lucky and get one round of boosts/neutrons to expand reach but quickly fizzles out. Your 3-5 friends 😛who zap/boost all your posts aren’t going to be there all the time. No chain reaction, limited visibility, limited account growth.
The problem isn’t the lack of algorithms—it’s who controls them.
People aren’t rejecting algorithms themselves, they’re rejecting opaque, manipulative, and engagement-driven ranking systems that traditional social media forces on users. The goal isn’t no algorithms, but user-controlled algorithms—where individuals decide what they want surfaced, filtered, or prioritized in their feed.
We don’t need to blindly copy legacy social media; we need open, modular, and customizable ranking systems that put users in charge. The tech exist it just needs to be built the right way.
Indeed, there's always an aftershock with the big fellas. It's really hard work to grow organically on here, which does have a certain POW aspect to it but still.
One thing I do is, every note I make (which isn't all too often) I boost 5 hours later. There's a bit of extra oomph to visibility like that and it helps for people in different timezones.
We don't want "algorithms", curating is the way forward.
"Algorithms" force content onto you, where curating let's you have control.
There needs to be a fineline, make sure people can access what they want to see.
Jordan S
Nostr does not need to be perfect, Nostr needs to be more curatable.
Clients + Relays + Self-Hosted Servers + Self Hostable Algorithms = Nostr Curation
Right now there is no easy method for users to create a proper Algorithm, sure primal has an "algorithm" of most trending notes but outside of that the other algorithm method you have is following people but that is pure 1 to 1 of every note they post, and sometimes unfortunately you might not share every exact interest as them, so it's not quite the ideal solution per se.
Curating will grow nostr faster than anything especially if we fine tune client, and Relays to be more synonymous, as in you go to woke client . io you start off with woke relays content, or if you go to big daddy Trump Client .io you get Trump maga deep throat relays content.
View quoted note →
Yes! I want an open source algo store to choose from and maybe even customize a bit myself 🙌
I have to post at 4 am to get good engagement 💀.
It's going very poorly, very few clients have adopted it 😔
@Vitor Pamplona whats stopping you?
ATM It' just a bunch of crappy DVMs that don't work half the time and hustle for money
I set it up on Coracle and it stopped working promptly after 🤷♂️ Big hassle ATM
Nostr is brutal for anyone outside of the USA time zones because most users are looking at Primal Recommendation List, as their main follows, and that's almost all Americans.
So, when those few people don't post, the chronological feed freezes. There's no incentive to use Nostr during other times, anymore.
You also have to cater heavily to Americans, to get those people to boost your stuff, so that anyone else can see it.
Do you think a personalized Recommended list would help with this problem? I presume Primal’s Rec list is still a global one.
Yes, it's a global one. At least, on Primal.net.
But, they'd inevitably tweak a personalized list to always recommend their short list.
What Utxo and Will are building is more future-oriented.
I find the jumble.social global feed really wakes up at night sometimes because the high follower nostr:npubs aren't there to suck up all the oxygen
jumble.social also keeps adding nostr: to my posts though
Don't hesitate to boost your own stuff from time to time. Nostr moves pretty fast and sometimes your notes can get lost in the void because of this
Not all clients but I really think nostr actually needs a client with a default algo that isn't primal.
GM
Dude, you're really bad-tempered. Get on our good side. Is it better to go to X? Nooo...! I choose ours, and they're not just Bitcoiners. You're wrong.
ATproto have already unlocked this power up.
As a user who is established, and has a good selection of people I follow, Amethyst is great, I love it.
When I test it as a fresh npub it's a nightmare. A global feed filled with hardcore porn and Bitcoin price & op_return bots. Discovery exists, but it's buried a few clicks deep.
A client for new users & lurkers would go a long way. Or a mode in existing clients to help new users take their first steps.
Wouldn't it be cool if the default feed for new users was just the #asknostr hashtag?
Nah that’s weird
How is that weird?
Cuz it’s confusing
Maybe
A mix of -str hashtags that just says "followed hashtags" at the top could be less confusing
This ->
How about a personal WoT relay, controlled by the user, that provides the rec list. The client provides the UX. If the client starts tweaking rec lists, you’ll know it.
I need to build a new structure for saving algo relays in our relay list so that you can add them to the list in the top navigation bar and then select it.
Then I have to redesign our feed infra, because all feeds are sorted by created at, which is not good for algo relays..
We will get there.
Yeah, I have a private relay and I administer wss://theforest.nostr1.com
Nice 👍🏻
If you could add any WoT-related features to relay tools on top of its current functionality, what would you ask for?
@cloud fodderright on! #peercuration is the fix!
The lack of algorithm is the reason I like Nostr! And of course the Bitcoin community around it.
Not enough clients support relay-based feeds for it to have a meaningful impact. I LOVE it on Jumble, and
@Cody has wisely made it one of the default relay feed options. I also use it on Coracle, but you have to know how to add a relay-based feed there for it to do you any good.
Amethyst already supports DVM-based algorithms. We just need more good options there.
What
@utxo the webmaster 🧑💻 has built is a relay that allows you to tweak the algorithm it uses to feed you notes. But this only works in clients where you can display notes from a specific relay.
Sounds like Amethyst will need some work under the hood to make that a realistic option, but it's coming. Can't wait to be able to see a feed from my WoT relay, and then switch to Algo relay, then to a private community relay in Amethyst!
Reading this 10 hours later, just like I've read Vitor post on a similar topic several hours later. I have to disagree with you on this one utxo. I'm very happy with chronological feeds. Clients can use your algo relay or DVMs for algorithmic feeds. And sure, they can support it, but I'd rather they don’t impose algos on users or make it the default experience.
What I really wish is that people would hit the boost/reshare and comment buttons much more often, as well as follow tags and new npubs with fewer followers.
As for clients, I’d love to see more support for NIP-51-like features so I can create lists of my favourite users and hashtags and keep up with them in chronological order from where I left off (kinda like Nostur). This is exactly what I’m doing with Fediverse stuff + Fedilab, and it works wonders. I often read posts that are six months old and have had some of my own posts reshared months after I originally posted them.
This💯
🤮🤮
🫡🫡🫡
Everyone on nostr likes these feeds, that's why we're here (survivorship bias). The issue is all the people who try it and leave, which according so some stats is 90%+ of people
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That’s what I like about it
OK this is a reasonable idea, in line with the ethos: full liberty for the user.
Time will tell
Primal is proposing a "Trending 24h" algo which is how I found this notes by the way, and I can't understand why nostr:npub142gywvjkq0dv6nupggyn2euhx4nduwc7yz5f24ah9rpmunr2s39se3xrj0and
@Damus don't do the same or something equivalent
This is the least you can do to make nostr relevant as a better / alternative X
I agree with
@utxo the webmaster 🧑💻 .
We are working on better feeds and an improved onboarding process that doesn’t make new users auto-follow a bunch of accounts by surprise. Those two features are related.
View quoted note →“Tell your client devs..”
GM utxo, I get where you're coming from. Still, IMO, growth in non-addictive social media will often look like this. Big new user waves whenever X, Meta and co inevitably do the next big nasty anti-user move, followed by a lot of churn and users "relapsing". In a way, quitting proprietary social media is like trying to quit smoking. Sure, algorithms can act as nicotine patches to help with the detox, but ultimately, they won’t keep most users around unless we make it as addictive, or more so, than the proprietary platforms.
There are already other social media apps trying to become the next hipster vaping alternative to Philip Morris / British American Tobacco. And yes, they are "winning" in terms of user retention and network effects. Still, in my book, Nostr is winning by default precisely because it isn't trying to do that.
To be a bit less philosophical: I don’t think the lack of algorithms is the only thing driving users away from Nostr. IMO, we really need to promote a culture of overindexing on sharing/boosting posts + interacting with smaller accounts + catch up functionality on clients.
Just to link both conversations together:
Anthony Accioly
I'm with you on this one. I mean, I'm very happy for folks to play with DVMs, algorithmic relays, etc. All great experiments. But I really don't want it imposed on me. (If any client starts enforcing algorithmic feeds, I'll stop using it, and if it becomes the dominant way of doing things on Nostr, I'm out.)
I also don’t get why every problem on Nostr is dismissed as a "discoverability" problem that requires an algorithmic solution. Classic XY problem...
Folks here can hate on the Fediverse content and architecture as much as they want (I myself dislike the fact that identity and content ownership are bound to specific instances. This is why I'm bullish on Nostr), but I’ve been making ActivityPub work with linear feeds, lists, and hashtags for ages. And yes, I can find basically all the content I want there: from niche tech stuff to content specifically for Brazilian expats living in small British/Irish towns. It honestly doesn't get much nichier than that. I'm doing this using a small personal instance that isn't even pulling a fraction of Mastodon’s content in a pool of active users much larger than Nostr. Still, the niche content gets to my feeds.
What we're lacking here on Nostr is a culture of boosting/resharing, content lists, and hashtags, so that content "lives" longer and spreads without needing endorsement from a Nostr influencer account.
That, and a good onboarding experience so that the combination of spam bots, manosphere/homophobic/anti-immigration/hardline MAGA content, or even generally well-intended but overly enthusiastic Maxis and Nostr devs (guilty) don’t drive users away in the first 10 minutes before they even get a chance to check out catstr, artstr, gaming, travelling, music, retrotech, or whatever else they enjoy.
View quoted note →
Yes, absolutely agree on that. If we want to be an open and free alternative - we should be able to change and reflect our behaviour. This is the source of most of our social media issues. Lots of people want to be guided all the time instead of acting as ecucated and souveran users.
I disagree,
Billions of users also want to be nurtured and pitied. The main reason why we have this left social facist clown world. Were some people know what's best for everybody else.
👀
What have we come to when people want instant gratification, won't even go searching themselves for quality follows. The idea is to curate your environment, without telling you what it should be.
We need interest-based algorithms 🗣️
View quoted note →Yeah, I agree Yooty but the fact that it’s chronological, and you can filter it to merely your friends and friends of your friends is actually kind of a good thing because while you’re engaging with the protocol you’re in the moment if for some reason you don’t access the protocol and something in your feed goes further down the list then you just missed out on the conversationI think the lack of algorithms keeps the conversation fresh where instead of cultivating content based on algorithms it’s more like an interactive real time chat room so you’re either part of the conversation and you’re in the know or you’re not
It’s not about instant gratification, it’s about adapting to the world we live in
No one will come here if we don’t cater to their needs and at least somewhat to their expectations
It doesn’t have to happen all at once, but adoption of freedom tech is more important than digging our heels in to resist change
Thanks to you, I'm using jumble.social and really liking it!
I can understand what you are saying. I guess it will begin with educating how to create your own quality follows.
Definitely not the case, based on bluesky's userbase liking the "no algorithms, just feeds" setup.
Bluesky userbase is a bunch of pedos they don't count
wat
There is a major popularity shift happening.
From:
Algos are evil
To
Algos are useful
As someone from a career in growth hacking, i believe the main feed should be algo driven for the normal users. It should be optimised for time on screen.
And there should be optionality to choose algorithms for advanced/seasoned users.
View quoted note →GM bro 🤟🏴☠️😉 While it’s true that Nostr’s current approach relies heavily on chronological feeds, it’s also crucial to recognize that its decentralized nature comes with a trade-off. Privacy and control often mean giving up some of the conveniences we’ve become accustomed to in centralized platforms.
But your point about algorithms is valid great content discovery is one of the strengths of traditional platforms, and we can definitely improve here. The beauty of Nostr is its open ecosystem, and that means developers can innovate and build what works. If the demand for better discovery mechanisms is loud enough, it’s only a matter of time before algorithms make their way in.
The key is balancing the ideals of decentralization with user experience, and there’s room for both. Let’s build it!
I think that would be a great middle ground and path towards a higher quality and more valuable user experience on the protocol
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