Moderation and user tools are not censorship. Not even close. Free speech doesn't mean that I have to hear you. It means that you're allowed to speak. Stand outside my house and talk if you want, but I do not have to let you inside to speak at me.

Freedom of speech, just not freedom of reach. -Elon Musk Is Nostr just gonna become a shittier version of "X" itter?

That's different. X silences people via their algorithms. Nostr giving users tools to mute assholes that don't understand what free speech means is the way forward.

You don't have to use those clients or those relays. That's the entire point of Nostr. I'd like to see a client that censors and bans and essentially acts like Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, you know the standard stuff of legacy social media, just to show that nostr is censorship resistant and that you don't have to use clients that perform these types of actions.

"Once these sorts of clients are introduced to the app stores the other apps that follow suit will probably become unavailable…" Don’t think that could be an issue?

I just think we need all sorts of clients. Ones that are wide open. Ones that give users a wide variety of control. Ones that filter, whatever you want to call it. Show the full demonstration of the protocol and give users the ultimate choice to what type of experience they would like to have. The more choices we have, the better.

I don't think that'll be the case. They'll always be freedom-loving psychopaths like us that will pursue and die on this hill. But that doesn't mean the other solution shouldn't exist either.

I definitely agree there’s enuff of us that will die in that hill…

That would probably be client dependent in this type of scenario. But again, that's fine because it demonstrates the openness of the protocol where any client can do whatever they want to do. I think it all comes back to having a wide plethora and wide variety of user choice. Why should what I say or what you say dictate what another user does or how I use another application or how the developer should build the application. I'm all for ultimate user choice and ultimate developer choice. Again, we should have a wide variety of literally everything. Don't get confused by my ramblings or have them be viewed incorrectly. I don't want censorship. I hate censorship but I think some people do and I think some developers do. So, if those clients existed then we will be able to showcase the versatility of Nostr. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Let's build all of it.

Thanks brother.

Maximize for freedom

I say this out of love. Fuck off. You're telling me that you want people to come inside your house and scream at you about things you don't like? I thought you were a sovereign individual? LARPer.

What is the difference between "free speech" and "freedom of speech" ?

There’s plenty of chances for people to take sides on all these forkin’ issues as they pop up. And hey, there’s always PubKey. *cafeteria fight ensues*

WTF

When you post on a nostr relay, you have "free speech" or "freedom of speech" ?

🫂

fiatjaf living long enough to become the villain

Do you consider email spam filters to be censorship?

No. It's your own email server, you can do whatever you want. But here we are talking about something else.

At a personal inbox level, yes block as many npubs as you want, and optionally don't be notified when/if they mention you. But @fiatjaf likely misspoke, when typing: "block them from mentioning".? But, the bridge WAY TOO FAR is blocking comments in the note's comment thread, as other users see it. These users have the ability to create an individual block list for themselves. Imagine if White House Gov or pharmacy companies had the ability to censor descent at this level. The easy next logical step is an approved repliers list. This would be safe and effective, after all. This is exactly how you Mastodon my Nostr, even if the sky is blue.

If I mute you for being a clown shoe that's not censorship. That's me being a sovereign individual over my own timeline. You can continue to speak and win and I can continue to see what I want and win. It's honestly this simple. Please understand both sides here.

And even there, it is more about "prior restraint". Even in the most free speech environments, if what you say angers and offends enough people, you lose your audience. That is inescapable, but many misunderstand and think free speech is being restricted. No one threatened them before they said / posted their message. There are, however, potential consequences for posting or saying what they said / posted.

Okay, I think I missed what you meant in the first place. What you are saying is that blocking the post of an user at the condition of the message being a reply/mention to another user is censorship(?). That's currently how it is on the current centralized social media. There is nothing to prevent users to broadcast their messages on alternative relays that won't support those specific NIPs, am I right?

Also, the third picture is talking about client moderation, not relay. I have a client I built for my meetup that anyone can post from but only a small list of npubs content is visible, that's moderation, not censorship

I had to look close to seeing it was not him....🤣🤣🤣🤣 This is funny .

You're definitely misreading the comment.

Maybe they're some sort of legal pressure and he's covering for future problems. "at least I tried".

This is easy to solve, but my best guess is people aren't going to listen to me (they basically never do), and nostr will successfully serve as a psy op to further the normalization of censorship View quoted note →

No, he's just a glowie racist.

What are you even talking about? Bluesky type censorship but pretending it's not?

If you want to prevent nostr from successfully serving as a psy op to further the normalization of censorship, join me in trying to counter-filter the people responsible for the bullshit. View quoted note →

I found the guy who wants to trust someone else to run their relay.

if widespread moderation by relays for protocol conforming notes (and other stuff) prevents users from reaching those who want to follow, then censorship resistance is failing

so long above remains intact - nothing to complain about any new proposal @fiatjaf or else closer nostr gets towards reddit/fb/matrix/skynet purpose get defected

He has been for a long time, but people kept ignoring it and letting it continue, like they'll probably do with this. Easily solved if there are actually people other than me that want to solve it, though.

Right. At the end of the day, it's always been about running your own relay. We've said this for years. Just like running your one Bitcoin node.

The solution is to run your own relay. Always has been. Then you're your own outbox and inbox. I've done this for years now with HAVEN relay.

Your reply is a good example of how pro-censorship people just lie about what censorship is.

I run my own private relay, for personal stuff. We are talking here about PUBLIC relays.

Lots of people love lying about censorship, expect much more of this. They can misread ANYTHING, or better yet, just make sure people don't "read" it at all.

I like that approach for freedom techies. it's not going help scale nostr to non-techie masses

I love having a private relay and eventually I'll fix whatever's plaguing the public relay I set up, but when I do it's going to be limited to people I follow being able to write to it and it's only going to retain notes for a limited amount of time. Both are forms of censorship. People who make public relays available are surely free to do whatever they want with them?

The text was not written by me and is not really important, just watch the video

But you don't mute people for being "clown shoes," you mute people like me for standing up to your gaslighting and scamming. Obviously you don't want to be exposed and you're willing to lie about what censorship is and surround yourself with lying yes-men.

Then it fails back to an education issue perhaps?

Derek Ross has always loved gaslighting the community

>People who make public relays available are surely free to do whatever they want with them? fiatjaf in that note do NOT refers to relays ability to filter or restrict npubs. That is undeniable feature and I agree with it. Not your relay - not your notes. But fiatjaf was referring to ability of any user of that relay to delete replies or even ban a npub to reply or mention you on a public relay. It's a big difference and a slippery slope.

If you want me to watch your video, make a post promoting the "2 options" I mention here and the human-tag web-of-trust idea I mentioned in my self-reply. Tag me in it (because my npub is so heavily filtered, a repost or quote post is less effective than this) View quoted note →

watching is for your own benefit/understanding. If you remain willingly confused on the matter then that is up to yourself.

Weak gaslighting attempt, retard

it appears you are also confused on the meaning of gaslighting

Weak gaslighting attempt, retard

I think he worded it strangely but I think you jumped to a conclusion that is incorrect. Moderating your own inbox relay is how you control "your" view of the comments section... Not what others see at all.. For example, if I want a dirty spam filled comment section with damus airdrops, I can choose to construct my comment section feed to include free relays like nos.lol. then if I don't, I only use my relays that filter on WoT. It's the same thing as a client mute list.. Other people that construct a view of the SAME comment sections will experience THEIR view of the nostr based on THEIR relays.. So.. it works really well. Using relays is no different than using clients, and for less than the cost of an X subscription you can run a relay for example with feeds.relay.tools and not get harassed or annoyed off of nostr like so many have in the past. Your feed, your view, under your control. Obviously I encourage you to run your own relay so that I don't have to run one for you but I provide the services in case you don't want to do that work and would prefer to have a 3rd party in the loop.

I found the guy who never tried changing mastodon server!

running smaller relays is better. big relays are not just a free for all. look at primal, they censor, look at damus, it severely throttles by IP, look at nos, it feeds everything to LLMs and has sophisticated blocking.. none of which is transparent. so your utopia view of these free big relays is flawed and would never work like I think you are thinking. better to lead by example and stop pretending a big free relay will have your interest in mind or be a good experience for everyone at once. by definition it will be more closed off because its under heavy load and doing its own things to cater to more people which would mean the experience degrades over time vs. running your own.

Read nip-65, fren 💛

lol isolated servers with 10 users. Bro that's Nostr with its 10 users. Mastodon servers do block each other a lot but who cares.

I don't like it but it's optional so I guess it's fine if someone wants to use that. It's filtration, like Primal caching server, but instead of a client filtering for all its users, it is a user filtering for everyone, worse than a caching server. Now clients that want to keep it public will have to do much more work to find all replies to that user's notes, pull from our follow list, check on every relay we know about, but that is too much for a client, it would then be easier to detect these type of users from their relay list and just add a notice for our users "NOT PUBLIC, this user controls what you can see", because the client will not go all over the world looking for replies on a thread when the author doesn't use any public relays. a client can always have other comment sections, from the people I follow or some other relays, but we still need to detect these type of users as they are not on the public side and they won't see our replies. but I'm happy for fiatjaf and anyone who will apply this.

#NDN, when with nost-(r) ?

why are you worrying about something that can never happen?

lol you would be the first one to ban monero posters from your relays

How does one of my relay blocking one of yours affect our communication?

i dont like big blocks

idk but people are going to want moderation and community tools. I think we're too early for that stuff be it's good to think about. Early in the sense of we don't even have enough users to worry about that kind of stuff outside of bots and complete nut jobs but I feel like blocks and mutes cover that.

Well, yes. Besides that, one of my relays blocking one of your relays would be an absolute waste of either relay operators' time. 😅

Kinda sounds like relays will just end up like reddit subs.... There has to be a happy medium somewhere....

"From your own inbox relay"

Good point we are still building

Hello there can we have a chat

Thinking about running a relay again. I hardly get any activity, my content is mostly to blame but I think the relays have changed since.

Hello there

Hello there can we have a chat 👋

No like I don’t want to see spam, and you don’t want to see spam so when you block spam it blocks it for me as well and when I block spam it blocks it for you. If I ever think you are being a dick and censoring my feed that isn’t spam I can un delegate you. This way you get the benefits of a spam blocking army with not central authority.

It is indeed... Very true. Could you imagine a curated public facing Note for Plandemic 2030, on Nostr of all places.

Sure, maybe it could work better on nostr than bluesky. Worth a try

lol if you dont like a client / relay, use other client / relay, if you cant find one, the answer is the usual : "build your own" lol this is beginning to be like mastodon. plus so much technical crap for only 10 human users on nostr, no wonder nobody want to join us

poster.place

Being able to moderate what **you** see is not censorship. Are you daft?

So it's going in the exact way it's started, everyone being free to do about whatever they fuck they want to. Did you even read the early specification? If not, why not? It's been clear from day 0 that both clients and relays can do what they want. What matters is that users can also do what they want. If a client does something you don't want it to, why would you ever use that client? Everyone can develop a client. If you are a programmer, write your own fucking client. If you are not a programmer, use a client that does exactly what you want it to. On a centralized platform, say Facebook or Twitter, the user is a slave to the platform owner. You can't pick your server, there is one server. You can hardly modify the client and doing so will likely breach some TOS agreement. Nostr is described by many as "not a platform", but it is one ecosystem in the same way each big centralized platform is. You can pick whatever relays you want and have your client interact with them however you want. What you never had a right to do, on Nostr or anywhere else, is get people that don't want to read your stuff read your stuff. People can avoid you if they think you aren't worthy of their time. Censorship hamper communication that is desired by the two participants. If you write something on X and I want to read it, and you want me to read it, but it offends Elon Musks sweet fragile tiny little fefes, Elon Musk can ban that post. If you write something on Nostr and I want to read it, I can read it. The only scenario where a client will hide it from me is one where I use that client because I don't give a shit what you have to say and I actually don't want to read it. Unless I'm retarded to the fucking point of using a client that acts against my interests. But no protocol solves the issue of morons acting against their own interests.

Every single Nostr relay that exists is because someone is running their own relay and just happens to also lets you shit post to it.

Nobody listens to you because you are a fucking moron. The client is a slave to the user. It only hides things from the user if the users wants it to (or is retarded to the point of using a client that mistreats them). Much retarded talk from you, never a line of code. Stop waiting for others to listen to you. Open your IDE, write the fucking code. Talk is cheap.

Relays that keep all content will continue to exist. I can run my own relay that allows everyone but you specifically and use that as my inbox. Nostr always allowed for that.

> We are talking here about PUBLIC relays. There is no such thing. Every relay belongs to someone.

On Mastodon admins can prevent you from reaching other accounts even if both you and the other person want to communicate. This can only happen to retarded individuals on Nostr.

Don't use shit from app stores, for fuck's sake.

> like Primal Primal is either not Nostr or the worst Nostr thing to exist.

sometimes you cant even read posts/replys from different relays/clients, too much technical crap, people just want to post/read, not everyone is as smart as you ser

90% people not understand tech / decentralization even inclu it-tech-pro way bitcoin game is now centralized same can happen to nostr 80% slowly if people NOT LEARN n keep ready local backup app relay by themselves just rely on some domain forever.

regulations will ARRIVE in NOSTR for big famous relays someday just like bitcoin - matter of time

dart's brain is cooked maxi SAUCE many thing will not go into his head but only through his ANUS.

nobody building / using infra spreadout few rolling out codes that not real decentralization

"utopia" never works he will learn n next 5 years slowly

What client was used to post something doesn't matter, unless that client is doing widely non-standard shit. In that case using such a client is an error from the poster, nothing that other clients can do about it. On Nostr you can use multiple relays. Even without the outbox model we can communicate if we share at least one relay that allows us to communicate. On Mastodon you depend on your one admin that you picked and we can communicate only if both of our admins allow us to. To address this you can have multiple Mastodon accounts, of course. The advantage of Nostr is you can reach others with just one account and no one person can ban you.

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Some people can't tell the difference between censorship and moderation -__- View quoted note →

Sometimes I wonder if censorship and control are like thermodynamics…. You can’t get away from it!

Weak gaslighting attempt, retard. Didn't read past first sentence

Tell that to the normies lmfao

We don't need to drag people to Nostr before they learn what a computer is. I think they should learn what a computer is first, then come to Nostr.

> Your handle is familiar from Reddit 👋 That's because I have a Reddit account. Yeah, that's me. The issue with Primal is much of what it does is decentralized. And some of its features don't even use the Nostr protocol. It's, at least in part, a centralized platform that happens to use Nostr as a database. > I'm not against moderation as long normal users are aware what is going on. I think users should be fully in control. I know I am because I am using my own client right now, so I know what it does, because I wrote it. I'm not arguing everyone should write their own client, but everyone should be nearly in as much control as if they did. In general, I think it would benefit the ecosystem if users of Nostr knew well how it works. The better they know and understand it, the better.

Insulting you isn't gaslighting. Gaslighting requires lying or deception. I'm not deceiving you, you actually are a fucking idiot. Write code or shut up. You are worthless, as a Nostr user and as a human being.

Weak gaslighting attempt, retard. Didn't read past first sentence

You didn't read any sentence, you cannot read, you are an inferior breed.

Easily

I haven't checked on Primal for a long time, I mean specifically their caching server, I know they also require an email for a wallet, it is a complied version of Nostr, or a platform that happens to use Nostr as you said, it is a business and I'm totally fine with that, but I will never be their user. Some users will only want to use something like that, and at the end of the day they still own their keys and can always just use another client. Building my own client too, fully client side and will not use a special server, has to be smart because relays are dumb.

Basically "subscribing" to someone's mute list, selectively. Can totally be done

We still don't even have a human-tag web of trust to filter bots though, it sounds like you want to keep building inferior shit while not having the basic tools we actually need

If you make it so a user can use another users mute list plus the mute list that user trusts from other people the web will build itself. Delisted cascading moderation would grow exponentially. Just need to build the ui to make it clear who people are in your web(layer 1 vs a deeper layer) and of course method to reveal censored material so you can monitor your delegated mods.

Why are you and the people with the emoji reactions acting like this is a response to what I said? You already said you want the shitty slop solution. I pointed out that we still need better shit implemented, like a human-tag web-of-trust. You basically just repeated yourself, but made it a reply to me when it had nothing to do with what I said.

Who shit in your oatmeal dude? I solution to spam is to crowdsource spam hunters and ideally it’s just regular people who happen to see retarded shit and mute it. If I could have the power of 100 people doing that for me there would be zero spam. I could also subscribe to people who label shit ai and then toggle off ai slop. The possibilities are only limited by the ui.

That sounds like a shit solution to spam. A better solution would be tagging verified humans, with a system we still don't have, and people keep talking about shit solutions more instead.

So a opt in decentralized system Is bad but a top down centralized system is good? Why are you here exactly?

No, a decentralized system of tagging humans, because we can actually verify if someone is a human face to face and hold liars accountable for lying about it, instead of expecting people to magically guess what's a bot and letting them go "oopsie, little mistake" when they lie about humans being bots. Sorry for approaching this in such a bad mood, I'm in heck today.

I don’t know anyone on here irl. I don’t plan to know anyone on here irl. I do trust certain people to determine what’s spam and what is bot nonsense. There are just no tools for me to share in their opinions. Frankly both of what we are talking about need most of the same tools built. In fact there doesn’t have to be one system.

True, we're basically both talking about a tagging system, they can be parts of the same system. But I think once we have that system, you'd end up finding it's not worth trusting anyone to label what's spam or bots, it's better to just meet someone face to face to verify you're a human. I also notice the part you're talking about keeps getting built and rebuilt 10 times by scammers and liars while nobody is actually serious about solving the problem enough to build the part I'm talking about one single time anywhere. I'm scared of how many more hundreds of "trust someone to magically keep up with all the bots without mistakes" systems we'll get before we get a single "blame liars for lying about whether they've met someone face to face" system

> Building my own client too, fully client side and will not use a special server, has to be smart because relays are dumb. Same for me. Just a static website, the only server it requires is a dumb HTTP server (it needs to be hosted, you can't just open the HTML file, but there is no server-side script) and, of course, Nostr relays.

And yes, it's not trivial to write one. Very based that you are doing so.

Yesss we need a way to subscribe to others' blocklists

Then make a NIP for it and vibe code a client honestly. But isn't WoT basically the same?

What I'm talking about is WoT, but when other people say "WoT" they mean web of follows, which is useless.

And vibe coding is pointless at this stage, bots are not progressing as fast as promised, they're taking forever to get good at programming. I can't force bots to get better faster, all I can do is try to get humans to code good ideas while I wait for bots to get good enough.

We HAVE a way to subscribe to others' blocklists, it's called Bluesky and it sucks. What we NEED is a way to subscribe to others' human tags, which means we also need human tags to exist in the first place. That's what programmers so far have been too shitty/lazy to build, that could actually help lead to reversal of the world's death spiral.

The same mechanism could be various tags. Like i could tag something bot and you could benefit from that tag if you trust me. Mute is just o e of the things we could use tags for any category.

Yeah, but the important tags should have specific binary encoding so everyone uses the same one, instead of expecting everyone to use the same word/spelling (e.g. "AI" vs "bot," should just both be different words for the same bit/byte)

And the bot tag should only be possible to place by both npubs agreeing, otherwise it's pointless

What the hell are you talking about

You're annoying brother

I know