Replies (82)
Best products can demand the best money
Lightning also cheaper. Won’t get charged the 2% fees for cc. I still think btc needs to monetize further. Imo more won’t happen until btc is past a mil
its happening now and will only accelerate
Well said. Totally agree.
Thank you sir 🫡
Game theory in play 👌
Ben gets it. Cheers!
The two sides to every transaction is missed on people fixated in the fiat system. The people who do well in that system are wired to save because fiat currency does not give them the ability to save. Someone invested in Mara said she invested in that because she was afraid to lose a password.
It occured to me that she is accustom to losing in that system. She said she was afraid of losing her password and mentioned the guy who bought pizza for 10,000 bitcoin, but there was another side to that transaction. Someone earned 10,000 bitcoin to deliver two pizzas. That's the story I wish more people would tell.
Cheers sir. We're gonna win
We're gonna win
The bright orange future is filled with people taking more personal responsibility.
Debasement causes you to be in constant defense mode
You're being an exemplary roll model 🫡
My only issue is how to price in bitcoin. When Bitcoin continues to rise in value you’ll have to continually adjust your prices, unless you just price in dollars and they pay the Bitcoin equivalent that day. But if you price in dollars you are reinforcing the fiat system.
We are and YOU most certainly are!
Never tasted a better Malbec!
I don't have a good answer for that at any time before fiat volatility increases massively.
It's something I've spent a lot of time thinking about
I'm honored 🤝🍷
I price in fiat still as I am in an area where there is very little knowledge or use. My underlying preference for bitcoin lies less in angling for personal future wealth and more in creating a fair and stable market unlike our current chaos. Decisions about pricing therefore are based on incentivising Bitcoin use, building local knowledge and trust. But, as you say that will change. If we continue using it as a store of value and not for exchange, so much is lost. Its function as a better tool of exchange is lost and it becomes about the political manoeuvres of the whales and not the bottom up, intentional shift it offers us.
Great convo, thank you
So, I developed a super high-quality product about a decade ago. We accept bitcoin for it (by private arrangement; no shopping cart automation yet) but I've been perpetually frustrated by my lack of skill and ability to promote/market it adequately.
It's not remotely as widely appealing as wine😜--at least in part because of unethical negative propaganda promulgated by the medical/industrial complex--but it ought to be as or more popular.
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👇Really sage observations.👇
Ben Justman🍷
How will Bitcoin scale as a medium of exchange?
If it’s so good, won’t everyone just save it and spend their dollars instead? That’s the classic argument.
This is absolutely happening and will continue for a while. That view only sees one side of the transaction: the consumer.
At the beginning, just as only the most committed Bitcoiners will spend it, only the best businesses will be able to demand Bitcoin. As those two ends of the spectrum grow, people who want to spend dollars and save Bitcoin will start to run out of options. Especially for quality goods.
This transition starts with shop owners upcharging for fiat. At first, it will look like today’s cash vs credit pricing, simply covering card fees. As Bitcoin becomes more obvious, that spread will grow.
Adoption will take time. Not every producer will switch quickly. The ones who do will outcompete. They will escape margin decay from fiat debasement. They will not need to cut corners. Good money chases quality goods, and these businesses will be positioned to thrive.
High-quality producers steer the next marginal transaction. Over time, they will steer it toward Bitcoin.
If a business wants to earn the hardest money, they will have to produce a top-quality good. Just like if a consumer wants a top-quality good, they will increasingly have to pay with Bitcoin.
Orange pilling the world begins at the margins.
There are two sides to every transaction. The margins are on both ends.
somebody please explain to me what the market force is that enables producers to upcharge for fiat.
fiat, with a larger payment network and lower barrier to entry, is going to be MORE expensive to use? why?
"because Bitcoiners want Bitcoin" is not a compelling market reason.
It's really not happening in Sweden atm. The only place I'm using my sats is via nostr. Friends and collegues still think BTC is toy money.
I'm really happy to see the evolution elsewhere, but sad it's it's not happening here.
TL;DR - Gresham's Law is followed by Thiers' Law
I’d spend and replace (+5%) at every opportunity. No-one in my area accepts it though. Bit of a catch 22
Thanks for reading!
Educate
Educate
Educate
Wine is more approachable, yes, but people don't give a fuck about my wine until I can educate them about the heal benefits of low intervention wine...then it becomes an impreritive.
Idk what you've been doing, but I'd just say don't try to sell it. If you think it's so important, it will sell itself once people learn to agree.
It's not happening in very many local places. It's more of an internet phonomenon because bitcoins are everywhere, but not concentrated enough to make a difference for brick and mortar.
You're living in the future on nostr
No Moore's?
If you ever convince someone to, you need to be their best customer.
Nice insight. Money is 50% of every transaction at the end of the day
It's why I like the idea of "satsflow"
Owning a business that is focused on developing bitcoin as revenue is very much heading in the right direction
Zap ⚡️ is the best payment method to incentivize value exchange.
Absolutely
No doubt.. I think there is a better chance of adoption via Bitcoiner business owners rather than uneducated businesses accepting BTC. For the immediate at least.
Slowly on both ends
my wife runs a brick and mortar store and her credit card processing fee is around 4% and there is no instant settlement assurance. you can work out the rest yourself.
and yet she takes credit cards.
I'm sure you can work out why yourself.
I've got two local guys who raise chicken and cows and they take Bitcoin, so I frequent the fuck outta them!
can you imagine customers being displeased that your prices keep falling? this is what
@SweetSats does and it's glorious
I think a good hook at the beginning is saving small local business the exorbitant credit card processing fee.
the only way I've thought of so far is a little clunky: a local tap-to-pay "gift card" that you can top up with fiat at any participating merchant, and using it in stores gets you a 2% (a bit lower than credit card fee) discount. no-brainer for locals who shop a lot.
behind the scenes it's cashu with a mint run by a local maxi. he would likely have to take a bit of a risk - he'd want to fiat-back every dollar deposited so if the price drops customers don't lose. on the upside... if the price zooms he might be able to kick back a reward to the merchants that month.
Because banks are already doing it with card fees.
If Bitcoin fees end up being lower than existing card fees than its happening.
Want to be investigated by the tax man ? Refuse payment via credit cards, they'll lock you up with very little evidence.
sure
they'll happily pay capital gains on $20 purchases 👍
great idea
my business doesn't accept credit cards.
because she's not me :)
Not from what I've seen. 2% feel avoidance sound cool, but not if no one pays for it
It has to lead to more sales which means it has to be part of a marketing strategy to attract Bitcoiners imo
It's exactly what I mentioned yesterday. Just offering a slight discount compared to credit currency prices would be enough.
There are those who want to create a world where payments are made in Bitcoin for a better society, and then there are those who try to delay Bitcoin payments as much as possible for their own economic benefit.
In fact, there are merchants who charge more when accepting Bitcoin, and I really can't understand what they're thinking. It makes me wonder if they're in their right mind.
hoppe2
I know this might be an unpopular opinion in Nostr circles, but I genuinely think it's better to delay using Bitcoin as much as possible and spend fiat first.
Yeah, yeah, I get it – Bitcoin isn't just an investment, it's actual money, blah blah blah. I agree with all that. But let's be real, the day we'll have to use Bitcoin for everyday stuff is inevitably coming, isn't it? Fiat will eventually be rejected by merchants, for sure. A day will come when we have no choice but to use Bitcoin, even if we'd rather not, simply because that's all they'll accept.
But I also get that Bitcoin is more than just a way to preserve our wealth; it’s about building a more just world, and that transacting with it is a necessary part of creating that better society.
So, here’s an idea that could satisfy both sides: if you're selling something, offer a discount for paying in Bitcoin. My point is, we all pretty much take it as a given that Bitcoin's price will be up in the long run. But as for next month? Who knows if it’ll be higher or lower than it is today, right? So, if paying with Bitcoin right now gets you even a small discount, there's really no reason to hesitate using your Bitcoin, because that immediate saving makes sense regardless of short-term fluctuations.
Honestly, the most ideal situation would be not giving a damn about the fiat price of Bitcoin at all and just saying, "My product costs X satoshis." But, with costs still being in fiat for most businesses, expecting that right now is probably a bit harsh.
However, what's the deal with pricing things in fiat, then multiplying by the current exchange rate for Bitcoin, and then charging slightly more for the Bitcoin payment? I find that kind of ridiculous, to be honest.
View quoted note →
Alternatively, they could provide a clear advantage over purchasing with fiat currency, such as non-KYC
Card fees + transaction fees on top of that
Many card processing services charge 2-4.9% per transaction + .30
In her case, has she looked into Stripe point of sale since it's still only 2.9% + .30 ? I would recommend it as one of the lowest and easiest. I still accept cards that way (for clients who haven't been onboarded to BTC)
1. Fiat currency loses value over time.
2. If you ask why not just receive fiat and exchange it for something else, it can be very cumbersome and annoying, leading one to think it’s better to just accept Bitcoin from the start.
3. Taxes.
everybody want to make it about credit cards vs LN apparently
Not just credit, debit too.
I forgot to add that upcharging or discounting for btc/LN) could also help to orange pill more people.
that's what she uses.
Agree
Hey, Bro,
Thanks for sharing your insights.🫂💖😆
Very insightful thanks
This is exactly why Saylor tells us to buy a pizza with fiat and keep the Bitcoin.
As the supreme form of money humanity ever had, Bitcoin will be used as a medium of exchange and also as a medium of transferring wealth in time. But it will be mainly used as a medium of transferring wealth first, before becoming the global medium of exchange in the future.
View quoted note →You can't have stable prices with Bitcoin. This will never happen.
Yikes, that's a lot of "vapor wear"
Fiat enables (relatively) stable prices.
as if prices are stable today?
My father in law is a builder. I asked him how to produce top quality products these days.
I will never forget his answer: "We can't. We don't know how to do it."
Very interesting analysis. Let's hope it's like that otherwise ₿ it will only remain a store of value. I think that what you described to you can happen not before twenty years
Yesss! It will help fight modern overconsumption!! btc fixes everything🚀🍯🦡
a rock that erodes away to nothing?
that rock?
open your eyes
I have a magic ability called "earning money". I need money to be stable between when I earn it and when I spend it. Works for me. Not that you could relate.
If I want to buy something and satoshi payment is an option, I will sometimes choose it. However, when satoshi payment is the only option, I have only the choice of buy or not buy much as the way it is in the fiat system. In both scenarios, if I decide to make a purchase, I buy fresh satoshis deposited directly into my Lightning Network wallet to then be spent. I won't touch my long-term satoshis as long as fiat exists to fund my short-term satoshi holdings.
yeah, “earning money”
u could earn dollars, btc, or yen, etc all “money”
it’s on each of us, we are individually responsible for creating our life stability.
the “too volatile” case is intellectually lazy and superficial.
today, for the average wage earner to accumulate the same purchasing power as someone from back in 1970, they have to work over 8x as many hours.
that’s why boomers bought houses in their 20s and no one can buy a house today. work is severed from value/purchasing power
calling that stable or non volatile is simply ignorant.
the dollar is volatile, and we are on the wrong side of the volatility.
A merchant could price the product at the fiat price of the product. Example, a bag of potatoes is priced at $5.99 in fiat at the grocery store, so simply convert the satoshi price to its equivalent. Only adjust the satoshi price when the grocer adjusts the fiat price such as before or after a sale discount that week. No need for constant price fluctuations by the minute.
Pricing in fiat and converting to satoshis is a sufficient transitional step until we reach the Bitcoin Standard. It avoids the constant minute-by-minute volatility of Bitcoin's fiat price.
> behind the scenes it's cashu with a mint run by a local maxi. he would likely have to take a bit of a risk
@vinney...axkl here has a genius scheme where others take the risk.
> he'd want to fiat-back every dollar deposited
if you issue ecash backed by fiat just denominate it in fiat. it's fiat end-to-end.
#btcfail
🤣
This is a great way to use the fiat system to boost Bitcoin
Hopefully
Until fiat becomes more volatile than bitcoin.
I believe it’s 3%! Thats where u see Bitcoin stepping in as well. As it gains adoption as a store of value companies will want it. When they realize they can save near 3% on transactions they will double down.
I'm not going to hold my breath.
Ya 3% is enormous
It is happening. Today, all over the world. It is not logical to deny reality.
The reason is supply and demand. It's not demand by the merchants, it is supply on the customer side. Too many people just find them easy, ignoring the transaction costs.
