Poor buggers

Is it possible to get money back from the state by claimimg unrealized Bitcoin losses? Fiat state scam.

This will affect you.

Won't that kill investing. Very short sighted

My god..

Get out, get out, get out!!!

Someone needs the money...

Its not going to happen

Well, Netherland seems continue cooking the recipe of disaster...

Well, Netherland seems continue cooking the recipe of disaster... View quoted note →

Dutch Tweede Kamer (lower house) debated and appears to have majority support for this Box 3 overhaul during Monday’s session. The vote is expected soon, with most parties backing it. Watch if other EU countries follow (Sweden already has elements of this)…

They’ve now done 1) exit tax and 2) taxing unrealised capital gains. Now we wait for the inevitable global taxation on capital gains, or some such thing in prob 5 years tops. War + a nanny state + infinity foreigners + boomers used to their comforts since retiring at 57 won’t fund itself. Personally, governments such as these are coming very close to or have already crossed the line to immorality. One might consider (not that I would recommend it myself necessarily, this is just hypothetical) to structure their wealth with optionality to both a moral and an immoral world.

😶🙃😦 = 😈🩵7☯️ ❗️👀👀👀 (👀) 👀👀 🔴🫣🔴 😶🤙⛔️🤔😯(1🫢)⛔️😳👀 🤔👀💐🪇😶🔵🙃 🔷️🔹️🔹️🔹️ ✅️ 🔹️🔹️🔹️🔷️ 💐👏💐💐

Good, I'm anxious to see what happens to a western country when all the capital and lots of tax-slaves leave in a short amount of time. Sorry about the people who have to leave their homeland but if it's any consolation, my country's probably next 😅

Do you get money back from the IRS if it’s a loss making year? That might be nice hack

I don't see how this ever makes sense

It's not even a question. Eurocrats lost the ability to think forward a decade ago. - it's politically convenient because they're sticking it to the "ritch" - when the 2nd order effects hit all the decision makers will be out of office and in cushy jobs - it gives a short fiscal sugar rush ...so it will happen.

Good luck taxing btc in self custody

lol, Holland just lost most of its millionaires & billionaires, as well as all the companies that they run and own . Fucking fools

It’s madness. It would be better if they literally just stole more. The market impacts will be disastrous. Idiots.

Relax. Under the current system we already owe taxes on bitcoin, stocks, bonds and other assets each year even if nothing has been sold. Its currently not solely based on changes in asset values, but on (a) assumed return percentages per asset class you invest in or (b) if you elect to do so, based on actual returns for your portfolio (incl. unrealised returns). NL is a great country to live. Investors and non-investors alike know that. No need to get too dramatic about this.

They can only tax what was purchased with KYC in the first place if that. And when the hell would they choose for these imaginary gains? The highest, the lowest, the most current, the average since purchase? And would they just keep taxing those that HODL? Would they do it in reverse and reimburse unrealized losses?

Maybe in your country but not in the US. Again how the hell would they even compute this? Average price, higest price, something else? And once they had taxed it once would they keep on taxing that same batch of BTC? How would they know it is the same?

Get very dramatic about this. That is pure thievery. I wouldn't want to live with people that consider such things okay.

Its a good thing we dont live together then 😂 I dont consider taxes thievery, just a contribution to pay for things we arrange collectively as a society. Sure we can debate what that contribution is spent on and how high it should be, but the principle is fine with me. But hey we can agree to disagree, no worries 🫶

I havent studied the new proposal (apparently its for 2028 but still needs to be approved into law). Under the current system, you declare your assets in your yearly tax filing. You can of course try to leave certain assets out, but that would be illegal and the tax filing program is pre-filled more and more each year (so they have data links to banks etc). If you go for the standard route, you are taxed based on the assumed return per asset class that you have invested in. So if you have 1K of savings, you declare that amount and that 1K in savings is assumed to have returned 1.44%, so you get taxed on 14,40 of assumed savings income. Similarly, if you have 10K of equity or other assets (BTC falls in that category), you declare that amount and that is assumed to have earned 5.88%, so you get taxed on 588 of assumed income. They then add up the assumed income from all asset categories and subtract the assumed interest on certain types of debt. That is the 'assumed net return' on which you are taxed 36% (this is all based on the 2025 rules). Oh and I cant forget to mention, the first 58K (single) or 115K (couple) of net assets (you can again subtract certain types of debt) is untaxed. There is also a second option next to this 'assumed return approach'. If your actual return is lower than those assumed returns, you can opt out of the standard approach and have them tax you based on your actual returns. Havent tried that myself yet though, so I dont know the full details there. There's not that much to tax on my end, so havent felt the need to dive into it 🥸 And I even think they are planning to automatically use this approach if your actual returns are lower than the assumed ones from 2025 or 2026 onwards.

Self custody is the only solution 🔥🚀

This if true would make the Netherlands a place to escape. Prepare accordingly. Of course fuck the government and don't pay taxes! View quoted note →

Applying company laws to people. FRAUD

They will use same rules that companies have to comply.

We can arrange things voluntarily and do in a lot of areas that government hasn't yet claimed control of. Government is NOT the people. It is rulers. It is self-legalizing initialization of force. Precisely the opposite of cooperation.

It is taken by force it is NOT a "contribution".

I always see this from the perspective that they’re giving you advanced warning. “If you have wealth you might want to take action and move”

Asset value is undetermined until sold. “Unrealized gains” is a contradiction in terms.

🤡

Taxes on the money that was taxed before you got it.

It would make no sense to not self custody. Maybe this is the way to get everyone to self custody. 😞

I like

What if you’ve lost 10%, do you get to claim that as a loss against your income at least?

Brutal. Time for the Dutch to exit the system and HODL bitcoin in anonymous wallets they own, outside of state surveillance.

It has NEVER been more obvious,...that taxation is theft

In the current system: no. But in the proposed new system which the original post is about, you will be able to carry forward losses to future tax years. So if you realize a loss in year 1 and a gain in year 2, you can carry the loss forward and pay less or no taxes (depending on the exact amounts of loss & gain) in year 2.

How can one short Netherlands?

Pure madness.

Its a suicide cult.

The new system sounds like an improvement then. I mean it’s kinda like choosing between a punch in the arm or a kick in the nuts. One is better but neither would be more ideal

So losses only count if realized but gains count against you even if you never made a penny off those unrealized "gains"? Not exactly equitable to say the least.

No, my bad, I should not have used the word "realize" there. If you have a loss in year 1 (whether realized or not) and a gain in year 2 (again, whether realized or not), you can carry forward the loss from year 1 to year 2.

We'll see how it goes! Personally I would like a tax system mostly based on: 1) Consumption tax (VAT / energy tax / tolls for roads etc) 2) Combined with wealth tax, since you cant fully control your consumption patterns yourself, sometimes life just happens and it would be unfair to fully punish the individual for that imo, so having the most fortunate members of the group pay a higher group contribution via a wealth tax (incl. a decent exemption for low levels of wealth) seems fine to me and I'd gladly pay that wealth tax myself if it comes to it 3) A lower income tax to stimulate working, I get that we need investments (= wealth) to make it possible to work efficiently and innovate, but I feel like the balance between capital and labor has become kinda skewed. Probably something to do with fiat 🤪 1-3 above is just the way I would like it to be structured. There will then of course be a lot of details to decide on such as how much tax income should all of this generate and how can we minimize that amount, but still arrange all the things we want to arrange collectively. Not easy and every individuals will have a different answee. Definitely interesting to think about though, we'll see how it goes!

*individual, answer. Man an edit button would be good 😂

If I failed to mention it I consider all tax systems pure thievery by the ruling class and utterly unnecessary for all worthwhile things the people actually want to be satisfied as much as is is possible in reality.

Arranging collectively means voluntary cooperative efforts. That is NOT what government does at all. They are NOT us, the people. If that is not obvious to you then I don't know how it could be more obvious than what governments are doing every day. I don't "agree to disagree". That is more cowardice and dishonesty.

I know some people working for the government, atleast those select few are very much 'us' in my humble opinion. Unless you mean government as in a global financial / military / technological cabal or something, in that case I have no clue since I don't know any of em 🧐 Yes the world unfortunately still sucks in many aspects, but no not everyone in the government does. And many of them are working hard every day to try to make the world a little better in steps (as are many outside of the government of course). Agree to disagree on what 'agree to disagree' means 😂 From my side its just a friendly attempt to recognize that you and I may think differently about the world and thats fine. Just like it is completely fine for you to see that as cowardice and dishonesty.

They are part of a by its nature evil institution, a wrong turn that can not take us where we want to go. But I thank you for you gentle clarity.