Replies (123)
wtf is happening to Europe
It's sad how only few people takes care about it.. when I say someone we are threatening they laugh at me and kid me.. no one see with our same eyes! 🎩
Bad news
Facts
This arrest only makes sense in terms of destroying an avenue for dissent and free speech. That's the only logical reason. If authorities in the EU cared about stopping terrorism and child pron, they would use Telegram as a tool to infiltrate groups doing it to arrest the perpetrators. The fact that they are doing this is actually evidence that they specifically DON'T care about stopping terrorism and child pron. Why else would they try to eliminate a tool that could help catch predators and terrorist?
View quoted note →Do we know who invented knifes?
History repeating
Nostr has been killed dead in China
Well said
Its nature taking its course, the natural consequence of weakness.
Do they even know about it in China?
I wouldn't discard it, I mean telegram conversations aren't even e2e encrypted by default unlike WhatsApp (theoretically) and Signal
Yes
I think timing couldn't be more perfect for Telegram to go FOSS under Pavel's instructions.
Seems like apps should have emergency plans like this.
If Pavel gets arrrsted, Telegram goes fully FOSS and thousands of clients go live.
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That's a good point. I was asking more because it'd be great for Pavel to give then a big fuck you while arrested. Like the server coming on top of Nostr or something crazy like that
Go fuck yourself scammer
Do something productive with your live
Yes that too.
Nostr has anti-fragility characteristics
View quoted note →WHEN ZUCKERBERG?
WHEN JACK??
LOOOL
WHAT THE FUCK . . . . ??????
View quoted note →Long hail hydra
Nostr should be tested by spreading some real crimes here. Curious to see what would happen. Like selling hitman services, fentanyl, plastic homemade guns in Germany, coordinating mass unrests in some sensitive asian places or UK, etc. To really piss some governments of.
Don't kid yourself, the wrench¹ applies to #Nostr also (devs tread carefully when approached by governments or law enforcement)
¹ Security
Looks like France has arrested the head of the company, but not the 500 developers 👈
I still have hope that this will turn into Wikileaks 2.0
The problem of protecting private conversations is not solved by Nostr.
It is cryptography in general that needs to be protected
Of course
Nostr is a Hydra - need a drawing to make about this ✍️
The INTERNET is the hydra, the challenges are scale and credible exits.
People really want/need great large "marketplaces" to coordinate and connect within.
This results in the inevitable need for centralization in some/many aspects of serving data.
There will always be a set of the largest and most popular chat apps, websites, and ... nostr relays which could be choked, and causr disruption.
The fact that servers can mirror data does not change this because, it would be impossible for many/all peers to serve extremely large data sets.
These are physical and incentive-locked dynamics that cannot be changed, but they can be mitigated at other levels (which nostr does not use afaik).
The good news is that end users CAN be protected from this, but the bad news is scaled servers will always have physical risks, despite scaled servers always being extremely useful.
There is no head to cut off!
We should be naive to think the governments can’t go after people in #nostr ! The relays will certainly be the first target for hosting “illegal” content! Can they win? No but they scare the hell out of some relay owners! On the other hand probably countries that oppose the West might even run there relays to give room for dissent!
All of the nostr apps can be counted. It’s not that big of an effort to threaten every single app.
The same goes for relays.
I think people are delusional to think nostr can’t be effectively shut down.
Obviously relays and and apps can get shut down..
The difference in shutting down Telegram vs. Nostr (the actual protocol) is that you shut down a centralized unit and users can't do shit with their data posted there after shutdown compared to shutting down Amethyst, people just login somewhere else with their key pair and it's all back.
The protocol lives and new simple self hosted protocol using apps can be built.
I say this meaning well. If we can visualize how the state(s) may crack down on the protocol, we can build more resilient systems that withstand any pressure.
Just because you can count it doesn't mean you can stop it. Take gossip for example, how do you shut it down? It's not on an app store not on a DNS.
Even DNS based WebApps can be run from their built html.
Also the relays that you can count on nostr.watch aren't the only relays.
They can make the experience worse, yes. But they can never kill the protocol for those who need it.
Yeah it will survive, no doubt about that, but surviving and thriving are different things. We don’t want to simply survive, we want to thrive no matter the levels of global pressure. Right now I can’t see how we’d do that.
Hosting companies will take down relays if threatened. You don’t need to kill the protocol to scatter all the users.
Direct Attack on Freedom of Speech.
Government tried to kill torrents and IPTV for years, they failed, Nostr is akin to these protocols, sure you can stop one here and there but in the end it’s like weed, it will inevitably regrow.
Nostr is not perfect, nothing is, but it’s a 1000 times more censorship resistant than telegram.
I don’t think so
When you kill telegram you take all the data down, DMs and so on.
Take a Nostr app down and I’ll use another one.
I have my Relay at home, this one is not getting down anytime soon
Barring the fact that it's really hard to know what even is a relay, you can connect to a relay with their ips or dare I say Tor urls?
You are right, but the spread across different countries would require coordination between governments.
I take Nostr down, who should I arrest?
They do this already and I hear there’s more coordination laws that were just passed
Where do I erase all the hard drives keeping notes?
Nostr is a protocol and basically just set of rules around which people build different apps. No one can stop nostr but you are right about apps and relays. In future I am sure we're gonna see many such cases.
If I run a relay which propagates illegal content and the government decides to fuck me - I am fucked. Before locking me up they might try to put a pressure on me to reveal the IP of the users who distribute illegal content and if I am unable or unwilling to do so - I am fucked.
From the users perspective the only way to use nostr absolutely privately and anonymously is though tor as all relays are aware of users IP addresses.
But the thing is - anyone can run relay and the most important thing is to decentralize relays as much as possible so that there is really no "one head to cut off". And I am sure they will try to intimidate replay owners buy fucking up some people as an example eventually.
Ya we need everyone to run a relay probably for best chances
You don’t need to arrest everyone, just a handful of prominent operators. The rest scatter. See coinjoin
The first step is to not deny the problem but to acknowledge the problem. That's what too many people in this community can't handle. Because... BULLISH!!! 🤪
Id rather assume it can all be taken down than naively ignore it. Then fortify
I think Durov is not innocent. Telegram is potentially tied to the Kremlin. Don’t be fooled by people virtue signaling and hiding behind free speech. As long as platforms are owned and control by someone free speech is compromised. (Same with Elon by the way)
How so? Please elaborate if possible.
This is true inside one jurisdiction
Let’s see how the Nostr blob adapt to censorship. It will be a lot more interesting than the telegram story
Best case is it happens, and we persist regardless - great marketing. Not sure if nostr will do well just yet, but I hope devs are considering all possible scenarios.
Id flowchart all scenarios and think of ways to safeguard against all - until the protocol is untouchable
I’d love to see the word salad justification for targeting the creators of open source apps built for peace, cooperation, self sustainability, and community
I think that's the better phrasing you were trying to aim at. Not that nostr can be shut down, or that it can be prevented from thriving, but heavily suppressed to thrive.
With that in mind, I think the goal here then is to keep on working and trying to make more useful products that deliver more value then current ones in the marke, and new values. Hard? Definitely. Possible? Definitely. When? Hopefully sooner rather than later with an exponential rate.
Nazi terrorists 🤣
Nazi terrorist pedophiles
I could have added some context :) but fired off right away
The Bitcoin and payment integration will play a role, if we come up with ecash private payment to incentivise Relay provider, this will also strengthen the network dramatically.
This is something traditional media do not have.
Bitcoin is Nostr heartbeat, if the former fail then Nostr will fail too
The solution to everything on Nostr is that we are a team of activists who will fight and never give up.
Not everything is a technical solution.
That would be really hard, it would hard to thrive with government actors breathing down your necks, It's not that hard to survive though, it takes an immense amount of wealth, coordination and knowledge to keep up the censor on something that is this decentralized.
Maybe we don't need to pack a punch? Maybe we just need to tire them out?
Anyways my two sats. Agree with your sentiments on fortifying ofcourse.
I'm more worried about things that are already centralized and in govt control. Like github. What
@Colby Serpa is building is extremely important.
I hope you’re right.
TRANSLATION:
Rational freedom fighters and protectors of innocence
😂 I’m just using the words they’ll use - we all know what they’ll say
😉 indeed my friend… they always accuse their opposition of what they are guilty of
> if there is a head to cut off, it will be cut off.
Then we need to become the mythological hydra.
we have friendship and bitcoin
Time for a Nostr Caucus
he is guilty of fighting communism and stupidity
Put the relay in the phone?
Yea coinjoin got crushed and community couldn't come up with better coinjoin
Yep. When the state cracks down people run for the hills. Sooner or later all of the hills will contain cooperating states and there’s nowhere to run
Yea only best privacy tech will work that time
I'd just go to microsoft and let them censor/shutdown github.
Still don't understand how pople don't see this obvious attack vector.
Supposedly we have GitHub alternatives now. But shutting down a repo wouldn’t kill a project as maintainers have it on localhost
Sure. But imagine the chaos. Obtainium, zapp store, install scripts (you know, wget xy | bash) for tooling, documentation/wiki ...
we should be prepared
Can’t hurt
I never thought we would see a totalitarian state in the EU on my life. I was wrong
…
..
In the same way our governments stopped the pirate bay? 😉
Decentralization means resilience and low cost of switching providers. You can deploy an infinity of Relays and web clients on an infinity of domains
Torrents are p2p and we don’t have this. More centralized than we’d like to think
If it needs funding, but bittorrent kinda doesn't, maybe nostr could end up like that. Instead of paying, the network just stores whatever people think is worth their storage space & bandwidth. Famous people have thousands of people saving and relaying copies of their posts, you and I just have our friends and maybe some nerd from the same friend group who runs a server
They've done that this year against Monero. It survived.
You can threaten popular apps like Primal and so on to introduce backdoors, you can threaten popular nodes to censor texts.
What you can't do is stop them. Someone, somewhere will host a node with the forbidden texts and our apps will still be able to reach them.
It won't be shutdown, albeit you are right they will try their best to break it.
But people can choose to run relays in the same way they can choose to seed torrents for others to use, so why not?
Like I said in other comments, nostr will survive because people can always run their relays and post from local even, but that’s not a thriving environment.
Are there any similar protocols/networks that can thrive under very adversarial conditions that are live today and can be used as inspiration?
d7zz
vj9 n lp
Maybe he wants to save his life…why would he fly directly from Baku to Paris? He knew he would get arrested in Paris…
Yes I think that people may be slowly learning that corporations are a liability as it relates to privacy governments will always have a monopoly on force and privacy is the easiest way to challenge that
So did I! This is so sad... :(
And this is just the beginning…
Telegram CEO Pavel Durov arrested in France…
If there is a throat to choke, it will be choked.
If there is a head to cut off, it will be cut off.
Platform owners that bend the knee to totalitarianism will censor and deplatform you.
Platform owners that do not comply will be arrested and threatened with the full force of “The Law.”
Nostr is a Hydra. You cannot kill Nostr. There is no single throat to choke, no one head to cut off. Succeed in cutting off one head and two will grow in its place.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/telegram-messaging-app-ceo-pavel-durov-arrested-france-tf1-tv-says-2024-08-24/Actually there still IS single points of failure.
Let me explain.
- App Stores. At the behest of governments can simply demand that ANY app speaking the protocol be removed.
In addition, they can wield regulatory powers to not permit any phones to be manufactured and licensed for sale that permit the loading of these apps.
We have to fix the root of the problem, authoritarian governments, not find ways to mask the symptoms.
Decentralized networks are probably the only way out of a dark future like envisioned by George Orwell.
2 words.
web browser
Of course.
But do you controll the code in the web browser apps on your phone?
No.
App Store can require browsers in use on their devices to block access to a rolling updated list of sites and addresses which serve this protocol. Or not be permitted on their App Store and on people’s devices.
Yes, there most certainly is work arounds. It’s the web.
One of the KEY features which makes sites like YouTube and x/twitter whatever so popular is their ease of use on people’s devices and their pockets.
I can 100% pop open a terminal client on my laptop, load up irssi and connect through a proxy into an irc server. Fully encrypted, and from behind restrictive firewalls. (I’ve done it to bypass draconian university sensors). Yet, it’s pretty pointless when there’s nobody on the other end to talk to.
One needs to educate every single friend how to utilize the service and what steps they need to access it.
People just simply don’t have the brain space to jump through hoops to get connected to you. So they gravitate towards ease of use and familiarity. Twitter Facebook messenger instagram, services they’ve been using for years.
It’s quick, it’s easy and it’s comfortable. They don’t have the same interests in finding new censorship resistant mechanisms to utilize for social media, because frankly they’re comfortable in their bubble already, and don’t want to go where their friends are not. To communicate with, no-one.
Yes this tech exists and it’s frankly awesome, but it’s also essentially irrelevant until it reaches a critical mass of people to become understood by the vast majority and therefore widely useful.
I like the protocol, but right now, while it’s still hugely still being developed, is the time to point out flaws as we see them, so we can fix em before they become problematic.
thanks for taking the time to answer in such great detail, I agree with your take. I'm hopeful on there being many more workarounds than blockers and that incentives will grow larger as the masses realize what's happening.
appreciate your call-out and totally support it.
cheers!
I think decentralized networks are the only way out of a dark present...
Your welcome. It’s simply a point of view. Not a dig on the protocol, or project. Just trying to identify potential avenues of problems so they can be fixed or worked around before they become debilitating.
One additional concern is, advertising money goes where the people is. So since this protocol is new yet, and lacking users. We have yet to see advertising flood into the space.
The form that that takes, could potentially be so overwhelming that it floods and blocks legitimate users from actually finding each others posts amidst a sea of advertisements.
One of Instagrams biggest problems is, I can scroll for pages and see nothing but OF advertisements, and one or two friends posts mixed in. All these accounts simply direct people off the platform, and none of them actually interact with their followers on the platform of instagram. So it’s essentially one big advertisement wall.
How’s that problem going to be handled in this protocol? If those accounts don’t come here, that means highly influential people won’t use it, and bring their thousands of followers either.
This is the concept behind chokepoint and chokepoint 2.0.
I love this
Can you explain? Never heard of it.
Chokepoint is how US regulators handled the online gambling/poker industry. Not through regulating gaming websites, but the banking rails needed to deposit and withdraw. Similar efforts have been made regarding crypto & banking.
This is Awesome!
Dsa en vigueur n'oubliez pas même les USA l'ont y compris Misa NYC ..très cher walker. En fait les citoyens se devraient de suivre tous les avant projects de lois avant qu'ils soient actés et mis en application....
Certains journalistes spécialisés se devraient de faire du matraque médiatique afin que ces projets gouvernementaux puissent être compris par Tous ... à moins qu'ils estiment à leurs niveaux que ces types de lois protègent la majorité des citoyens...infos sensibilisation et préventions..vous comprenez maintenant pourquoi les citoyens français sont souvent en révoltes et l'on nous classe de *râleurs* en manifestant jusqu'à bloquer certains de lois..dans nos structures il est de notre rôles de travailler sur les tous détails de textes avant qu'ils n'avancent pas trop jusqu'à restreindre de plus en plus nos libertés individuelles..
Something is funny in the world. Nostr and Bitcoin the path to take. We are early.
A riskier option, but yes.
Agree. Every relay operator is accountable for her relay. Just like Torrents uploading.
it will have no reach though. Anyone can upload a censored youtube video to a differnt platform or webpage or server or torrent site too. Has not made censorship go away or ineffective,
veilid?
agree. they did this with youtube-dl on github.
"If there is a throat to choke, it will be choked."
View quoted note →This is why I came to #Nostr... I'm part of the hydra now.
Hail Hydra!
