Everytime I zap someone vie Lightning from my wallet, it takes 5-10 seconds for the zap to settle and for everyone to see it happen on nostr.
Everytime, I think "this could've been an instant nutzap". "Tap, boom. Tap, boom. Zap zap zap. I would be zapping so much more."
The reason a nutzap is instant is obvious. At this point, I hope that everyone knows that a Cashu nutzap is just an instant transfer of an IOU from one user to another.
Let's step back and look at a pure Lightning zap on nostr for a second. We all know that the vast majority of Lightning zaps is effectively an exchange of one custodial IOU against another one as well. Most people use custodial wallets. So why is it still so slow? It's the Lightning settlement between the two custodians that often takes 5-10s to complete. Note, some users actually do run their own node, manage channels, run LNURL servers, etc. But they still get the same UX.
Here is an idea. Let's say a user doesn't want to use Cashu. Pure Lighting maxi which I think is great. I've been a Lightning dev for years before I started working on Cashu. This user could still be nutzapped and even remain fully self-sovereign if they run their own node.
What if the receiving user's Lightning wallet (custodial or non-custodial) was able to melt all nutzaps it receives by watching the nostr wallet ("nutsack") of its user? Either for every nutzap or whenever enough nuts are accumulated, the service could withdraw the nuts to the user's real Lightning wallet.
Effectively, this would improve the zap UX by showing everyone an instant zaps. The receiving user's custodian (or themselves) would have to run something like a nostr-cashu-wallet-watcher on a server to receive while being offline, but they have to run a Lightning node and LNURL and all that anyway (they already have a server).
Even without a server, normal nostr clients without true nutzap support could withdraw all nuts accumulated while they were offline back to their Lightning wallet everytime they come back online. The only real difference to a normal zap is that noe it's the receiver's job to settle via Lightning, not the zap sender's.
Nevertheless, zaps on permissionless social media like in nostr will never be completely trustless. They can't solve the sybil problem for instance. If you want, you can zap yourself an infinite amount of normal Lightning zaps on nostr without moving s single Satoshi. We faked zaps in the early days like crazy just to have fun.
But it actually turns out, all that doesn't really matter too much at all. First, people seem not to abuse the sybil issue. We had fun for a few weeks but then it got uninteresting There is not enough to gain, no algorithm to fool, no benefit of lying (at least not yet). Second, zaps are literally free money given to you from a random person. Why would someone rug you if they want to literally gift you money? It doesn't make much sense.
I think we have a lot more to learn. @PABLOF7z recently said he thinks we have explored 1% of what zaps can be. He might be right. I think the reordering of events that a bearer zap system like with Cashu brings could open new doors for insane UX and it looks like we're actually going to find out. We have zero-config wallets now. Imagine how cool it is to bring your money wherever you go with your nsec.
Keep exploring, cypherpunks. We do live in the best of all times. Bullish on Bitcoin, bullish on Nostr, bullish on Cashu π§‘
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Which clients support nutzap at the moment?
GREAT RANT π―π₯β‘οΈπ₯
ZAPS N NUTS EVERYWHERE π
# ππ§π·π€
My zaps are sent, reconciled, and reported "complete" to my client in sec of less. That's using my node as my Lightning wallet. But if I use Minibits, it can up to 7 or 8 seconds. So I think it depends on the specific wallet you're using, and how quickly it can reconcile and report back to the client. I'm referring to NWC connections, BTW. I don't know how long it takes if an external wallet is called from the client app but I suspect it would longer from start to finish.
Offline zaps are the only way forward
But that's a bit different than what @calle said. You are using minibits possibly over nwc as a lightning wallet to zap over lightning. That's slow, because you added a Nostr relay in the middle, while the lightning wallet is still slow.
@calle was mentioning the case when you send the ecash note directly over nostr. That's literally one https request.
Nutzaps are the way. LN fees are an impediment to zapping. Who wants to pay 2 sats to zap 10 sats? Interacting with the mint via nostr makes it easier to run "private" mints. Nutsack wallets on nostr solves the "where are my nuts?" problem. Nobody wants to lose their nuts.
Nutzap + Samiz : offline local Nostr including zaps π€
This message was generated on an offline device. Indeed this device was never connected to the internet.
It was shared from its local relay to my local relay via Bluetooth (and Negentorpy)
I were able to recover it with Amethyst and broadcast it to my online relays.
View quoted note β
Everything thanks to @npub1yjxe...l9d0 π₯³ I think I'm getting closer to an alpha version
View quoted note →
Even what 1% is right now is incredible to see. Been so fun building.
You can set up a nostr wallet with https://westernbtc.com. Iβm still building out most of the functionality. But I have a unique feature where you can receive zaps to your nostr wallet via [username]@westernbtc.com. For example what I have mine set to.
π¨ FORT NAKAMOTO OFFICIAL RESPONSE: ZAPS, NUTZAPS, AND THE QUEST FOR INSTANT SATISFACTION π¨
π BREAKING: LIGHTNING PAYMENTS ARE FASTβBUT NOT FAST ENOUGH FOR THE IMPATIENT BITCOINER
π THE PROBLEM:
β
A regular Lightning zap takes 5-10 seconds. Thatβs an eternity in meme time.
β
Nutzaps (Cashu-based) feel instant. Because they areβitβs just an IOU shifting hands.
β
Most zaps already involve custodial IOUs anyway. So why is there still friction?
π THE SOLUTION:
β
Let your Lightning wallet auto-melt nutzaps into real BTC. Custodial or self-sovereign, itβs all just settlement flow.
β
Make zaps look instant while keeping final settlement flexible. UX matters.
β
Lightning maxis get their instant dopamine, Cashu users get their bearer ecash, everyone wins.
π° FORT NAKAMOTO OFFICIAL VERDICT:
π₯ If it feels faster, it is faster. The brain doesnβt care about technicalities.
π₯ Cashu & Lightning arenβt competingβtheyβre just two different ways to spend magic internet money.
π₯ The future of zaps isnβt just paymentsβitβs coordination, incentives, and meme fuel.
π‘ NEW RULE: If your zap doesnβt land before the next meme cycle, itβs already too late.
π Repost if you believe in instant, permissionless value transfer.
β‘ Zaps = Proof-of-Speed.
#FortNakamoto #ZapOptimization #FixTheLatencyFixTheExperience #InstantOrBust
I really like this approach!
About zaps and verifiabilty:
To my use-case in SatShoot, zaps are an important part of the Reputation of a client or freelancer, so the sybil attack would ruin this signal.
Therefore I use additional context to zaps that is the participants of the freelance deals themselves.
If the freelancer and the client both are part of my web of trust I will count the zaps on that deal.
Furthermore, a nutzap is inherently more verifiable because:
- I can look at mint recommendations and 10019 nutzap-receive preference events of my web of trust to assess a mint that the nutzap came from
- The sender of the zap receipt event is not a random LN node's pubkey but the actual person zapping
Commenting so i can read later.
Doesn't work like that if you try to send 500,000,000 zaps. Try me and prove me wrong. Please π
Zap latency and zap latency testing is exactly what I am working on currently. I am finding for Rizful nodes I now can get confirmed zap reciepts out from a successful payment in under 1000ms, measured from moment of click of the zap button, when the invoice is requested. I'm actually building a testing/analytics system which will be able to produce timing metrics for any zap target.
Yes. It makes a lot of sense to detach payment and settlement.
And cashu seems to be natural payment protocol. It will became the default.
I agree with your conclusion, since zaps are donations, not payments. Just a small nit pick: in my experience, slowness in LN is usually the receiver problem. I've seen well-managed nodes settle in under a second. And I think it's still worth pushing for better LN.
Of course this is not related to Nostr which can do its own thing. But also the clients should make the distinction between settled and not settled visible to the receiver in case people start selling services for zaps.
Thank you Calle. Respect Always
I agree. Personally I'm excited to explore making nutzaps first class events (can be reacted to, replied to and serve as a sub thread on a post) instead of a mere reaction. Nutzaps feel a lot faster in my experience, and once you have clients that can redeem to NWC wallets users can be receiving nutzaps that are converted to self custody sats when they get online.
I dunno if this is sacrilegious, but for me privacy is pretty far down the list of what makes Cashu attractive. It's like privacy, sure, why not, I'll take itβbut it's this kind stuff that really does it for me.
> Who wants to pay 2 sats to zap 10 sats?
Yes, exactly. And you look at what people say about Apple's in-app purchase take, which is more or less the same % on average.
The privacy of Cashu comes as a byproduct of great UX, as it should be.
If you chose specifically to attack me on the 'UX' lies. Congratulations. You're siding with abusive people, and you probably haven't even figured out there are multiple people involved and you're massively deceived.
Fun fact, you can create a token locked to your own npub on cashu.me and then redeem it on 0xchat, smooth as butter.
Nice I haven't tried that. Can you make us a little tutorial?
You know better than to respond like that. You also know very well why you sent that message. I'm just honest about it and you lie about your motivations.
In Cashu Wallet, how do you lock a token to someone's npub?
I'll do a quick thread and paste here stay tuned.
Smooth as peanut butter?
Wouldn't we all have to be in the same mint to prevent this? When I zap from minibits I still incur a 2 sat charge because the other person is either using lightning or a different mint.
Trading nuts on the same mint can happen with no ln fees. Once you have enough nuts accumulated on a mint, the base lightning fee is insignificant to the amount. The problem is many LN nodes charge a 1 sat base fee, and if you go through two of these nodes, that can add up quickly. Even one sat for a 20 sat zap is too much. A 2 sat fee for a 2000 sat LN settlement, that's at least tolerable.
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Try this
View article β
I agree, It wouldn't be a big deal for higher transactions but most zaps are fairly small. I guess I was thinking more in terms of the way people use zaps currently (or maybe I'm just cheap). If I zap someone 21 sats I usually get charged a fee because they aren't using ecash, but even if they were, we'd have to be in the same mint to benefit from the lack of fees. People probably wouldn't all settle on the same mint so I don't see how the fee is avoidable for zapping, unless it happens to be someone in the same mint that you are using.
The idea behind nutzaps, not the way they are used now, is that you rarely settle them over lightning. This way SATs can circulate between npubs as zaps with no fees. You keep them on the mint you recieved then on and trade them around for free. You can settle them once you have enough accumulated on a particular mint. You can also move them from one mint to another (maybe move them off a public mint onto your own mint), or you can simply use it to pay for things. The power of nuts is you can consolidate small zaps into one large LN transaction and/or an on-chain uxto.
yes this sounds great.
let's do it.
have you heard about our Lord and Savior, Bookmarks?
making the MORE private thing easier, better and faster - this is the opposite of what centralized tech does, and this is how we slay it.
Why is Primal βinstantβ (at least on the UI and therefore UX) but other clients and/or wallets have the delay?
π³ I think I get it now. This is something new that I am unfamiliar with but I think I understand what you are saying, now I just need to figure out how this works in practice. There is so much terminology thrown around on nostr that often times I think people are just talking about the same things in different ways! Haha, thanks for educating me!
I also could just bookmark, but Iβd rather leave a mark
Does anyone have anything, even a script, we could run manually thatβs like this proposed Nostr-Cashu-wallet-watcher?
I only believe in kind1. I avoid false kinds.
I did automatic lightning payments every 6 blocks to a few people before zaps were a thing, but stopped for this reason.
I've been going down the cashu rabbit hole these days because I can send sats without being connected to the Internet.
Agreed.
nuts, nutsacks, and nutzaps π₯β‘οΈthis is peak performance
Cording agree more
View quoted note β
As UX improves, I think Nutzaps will become more popular. We they also need more exposure, too.
Simple things like embedding nuts in emojis or images might seem like geeks having fun, but what's really happening here is breaking down some of the friction to give people exposure.
UX will always be the largest hurdle. If it can be instant and easy, then I think we've nailed it.
One of the most powerful and innovative features on NostrβZapsβstill faces significant technical hurdles that limit its usage. Have you not seen @corndalorian's daily passive aggressive memes about it?
Enabling, sending, and receiving Zaps should be so effortless that someone could practically roll their face across the keyboard and make it happen. Zaps should "just work". @primal does an excellent job solving this issue this with a KYC wallet upon on-boarding, however not everyone wants KYC, nor can everyone use Primal's region locked wallet.
Why do we need Zaps to be this easy? Because seamless usability mirrors the existing financial system. People don't like change, especially when it makes things more complex or confusing. If we want value for value to grow, we need this foundation to be strong. That happens with adoption.
Will Cashu, a "Nutsack," or a "Nostr Wallet" solve this? Itβs entirely possible. In the end, it all comes down to user experience. Keep building. We need this code to be cracked.
Everytime I zap someone vie Lightning from my wallet, it takes 5-10 seconds for the zap to settle and for everyone to see it happen on nostr.
Everytime, I think "this could've been an instant nutzap". "Tap, boom. Tap, boom. Zap zap zap. I would be zapping so much more."
The reason a nutzap is instant is obvious. At this point, I hope that everyone knows that a Cashu nutzap is just an instant transfer of an IOU from one user to another.
Let's step back and look at a pure Lightning zap on nostr for a second. We all know that the vast majority of Lightning zaps is effectively an exchange of one custodial IOU against another one as well. Most people use custodial wallets. So why is it still so slow? It's the Lightning settlement between the two custodians that often takes 5-10s to complete. Note, some users actually do run their own node, manage channels, run LNURL servers, etc. But they still get the same UX.
Here is an idea. Let's say a user doesn't want to use Cashu. Pure Lighting maxi which I think is great. I've been a Lightning dev for years before I started working on Cashu. This user could still be nutzapped and even remain fully self-sovereign if they run their own node.
What if the receiving user's Lightning wallet (custodial or non-custodial) was able to melt all nutzaps it receives by watching the nostr wallet ("nutsack") of its user? Either for every nutzap or whenever enough nuts are accumulated, the service could withdraw the nuts to the user's real Lightning wallet.
Effectively, this would improve the zap UX by showing everyone an instant zaps. The receiving user's custodian (or themselves) would have to run something like a nostr-cashu-wallet-watcher on a server to receive while being offline, but they have to run a Lightning node and LNURL and all that anyway (they already have a server).
Even without a server, normal nostr clients without true nutzap support could withdraw all nuts accumulated while they were offline back to their Lightning wallet everytime they come back online. The only real difference to a normal zap is that noe it's the receiver's job to settle via Lightning, not the zap sender's.
Nevertheless, zaps on permissionless social media like in nostr will never be completely trustless. They can't solve the sybil problem for instance. If you want, you can zap yourself an infinite amount of normal Lightning zaps on nostr without moving s single Satoshi. We faked zaps in the early days like crazy just to have fun.
But it actually turns out, all that doesn't really matter too much at all. First, people seem not to abuse the sybil issue. We had fun for a few weeks but then it got uninteresting There is not enough to gain, no algorithm to fool, no benefit of lying (at least not yet). Second, zaps are literally free money given to you from a random person. Why would someone rug you if they want to literally gift you money? It doesn't make much sense.
I think we have a lot more to learn. @PABLOF7z recently said he thinks we have explored 1% of what zaps can be. He might be right. I think the reordering of events that a bearer zap system like with Cashu brings could open new doors for insane UX and it looks like we're actually going to find out. We have zero-config wallets now. Imagine how cool it is to bring your money wherever you go with your nsec.
Keep exploring, cypherpunks. We do live in the best of all times. Bullish on Bitcoin, bullish on Nostr, bullish on Cashu π§‘
View quoted note →
I've just submitted a PR for Cashu.me which should make the whole going to nostrcheck.... adding 02 etc superfluous.

GitHub
Add automatic npub conversion for P2PK by robwoodgate Β· Pull Request #358 Β· cashubtc/cashu.me
Allows user to enter an npub for P2PK locking.
npub is converted to officially supported 66 character P2PK format automatically on send.
If key is ...
Nice. Far as I've tested it's only 0xchat that's good to redeem on the Nostr app side. No luck yet with the NIP-60s like Olas, Chachi, Shopstr, Satshoot.
BOLT FUCKING 12
Slightly longer processing of Minibits NWC is as well due to the need to transport incoming nwc command over the (double) encrypted push notification and process the payment directly on device where the ecash lives.
I agree on this, because below:
nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpwgv8jm36e358cq3qn2unt0hmvzaxejnk9mqrlum9m464qd7v7prqqsdycqmjxfy65xqgc8jk8988qj6h37pv0n4mwszfh9d2s6x3ud2nfg9hda7y
Crypto trading is actually the future of digital currencies so make sure you're on the right path and being making profits from the market already
Any questions ?? ππΌππΌ
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Before I start really nutzapping I feel the need to run my own mint. And I wish this was easy, I still cannot figure out how to exactly.
I feel like I place where I can make nuts and nutzap someone instantly without having to rely on the 3rd party or another mint to stay online for me.
Maybe Iβm missing the concept entirely, but without the ability to create my own I donβt feel like Iβm getting the full experience.
I used to give people sats by using https://tipcards.io/
It's great. They have a Wallet of Satoshi tutorial. The problem is wallet of Satoshi is not available to normies in the United States anymore. Normies aren't getting an apk for Phoenix wallet on GitHub. To think otherwise is not a realistic.
After the WOS ban, many of the early nostr people left because they didn't have an alternative lightning wallet. Cashu gives us more options than the Custodial alternatives.
I started making Cashu Cards
because cashu is interoperable with many different wallets. If one wallet decides to pull out of the United States, other wallets will still be available. That's why I like it. Even though I am a super-geeky lightning node runner myself, my wife would punch me in the face if I made her run her own lightning node. So would most other people.
#Cashu enables offline bitcoin payments. That's really cool for small amounts. It's like zaps in meatspace. Nobody's telling you to put your life savings in Cashu, but it's awesome tech. It could also work with fiat gift cards. Chaumian e-cash was almost used with fiat in the 90's. The 90's are back in style. Make ecash great again!
GitHub
GitHub - Marc26z/CashuCards: Greeting Cards give bitcoin using the Cashu protocol.
Greeting Cards give bitcoin using the Cashu protocol. - Marc26z/CashuCards
Easy: run a Lightning node, install nutshell on top, get https (caddy for example) and your mint is good to go.

GitHub
GitHub - cashubtc/nutshell: Chaumian ecash wallet and mint for Bitcoin
Chaumian ecash wallet and mint for Bitcoin. Contribute to cashubtc/nutshell development by creating an account on GitHub.
I can make some fun designs if you want βοΈ
That would be awesome!
I am working on my art work with a lot of Nutsπ€£ and soon I have the items digital in color (vector) so can make easy a design. For example of this one π₯πΏοΈπ€£ (this is a sketch)


Comes out of this art work that I make for @Bitcoin FilmFest
View quoted note β
Iβm so frustrated X banned me for posting bitcoin content
So now Iβve come over hereβ¦ Iβm still trying to understand how to use this platformβ¦ hope this works better over here


Looks great.
Just DM me next week orso with the size/guidelines for a caed so I can make some examples. βοΈ
I have 2 LN nodes. MyNode and StartOS.. Iβll give it another shot π
This thread has convinced me to learn as much as I can about cashu
Sure. Thanks man. I love your work.
Copy pasta π
This is awesome - π Thank you
Susan is a prominent investor in the cryptocurrency space, known for her insightful strategies and deep understanding of the rapidly evolving digital asset market. With a strong focus on Bitcoin and other major cryptocurrencies, she navigates the complexities of blockchain technology, market cycles, and regulatory landscapes to make informed trading decisions. Susan approach combines technical analysis with a keen eye on macroeconomic trends, allowing her to identify long-term opportunities while managing risk in the volatile crypto market. Her trading style emphasizes patience and adaptability, helping her capitalize on both bullish trends and market corrections. Investors following her moves are often drawn to her disciplined yet forward-thinking approach to crypto trading... Inbox π
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