What level of nostr derangement syndrome is this. Nostr won’t work because you can just censor the apps? What? This seems like an argument against X not nostr. 
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right!?
angles/analytics Parker is good @, especially his own imho
yes
He also did it just now in brazil
mixers 4 ISP's ?
He has a point but only in a vacuum. That scenario is plausible but is not anywhere near the whole picture.
He is not considering the fact that we can simply turn to any of the other nostr clients.
Oh, they're all "banned"? We we can easily sideload the apps.
And if that doesn't work we can spin up private clients with open source code.
All the while your identity persists like nothing happened.
A protocol is PRECISELY what we need. Saying we need unfaliable devs is like saying the solution to corruption is a perfectly virtuous government. All humans have a weak spot.
Nostr provides trustless identity and the foundation for it.
Maybe he means that they'll go after one or two devs and make an example out of them for the rest? But his conclusion is wrong.
But also, these guys are blind to their own leader. Elon has bent the knee in Turkey and in India and has censored accounts there. And the likely reason is that it would affect sales of Tesla/Starlink in those jurisdictions. What a free speach hero...
Nostr isn't claiming to be the town square. It is a censorship resistant protocol where people can go (often as a last resort) to maintain their voice.
endpoints
Thinking is his problem.
You’re supposed to do the thinking after the understanding, and Parker clearly hasn’t got that part down.
I don't agree all that he said re the app level censorship. However, before we fully shut his concept. Could we look at the last statement he said? If let's say someone decided to "shutdown" or block the entire protocol (god forbid! 😬), since no one owns it. How do we navigate this predicament? genuinely curious #asknostr
To expand on this, nostr is there for the most desperate, much like bitcoin to be honest.
It gives those who would otherwise have no voice the ability to communicate, just like bitcoin gives the unbanked the ability to transact.
I agree 99% of people won't do all those things, but also 99% of people likely aren't desperate enough right now. If/when that time comes, nostr will be here for them. Things like that don't happen in a vacuum. And when it does happen to a given population, that disenfranchised group alone will be enough users to make nostr "worth it" and appreciated.
I noted this a while back but I think its appropriate here: nostr doesn't have to be big, to be big.
🤔 no community notes "readers added context" for false information?
Does he not know you can hop between clients lol?
I really don't uderstand Bitcoiners defending Elon Musk or X..
Lol those poor morons.
Here I am using a self-hosted web front end. Try and censor this shit MFers
You ever see a browser get censored?
Elon Musk is the biggest blind spot humanity ever had.
He's such a scammer and a govgov puppet.
If you listen to his lies and fake promises, he looks like a good guy, but if you look at his actions, you'll see something completely different.
The massive and impressive things are mostly also negative 😅
Exactly.
I don’t know what happened to Parker. He’s been spitting a lot of opinions out there that don’t seem well thought out. It’s as if he’s keeping his heels dug in with a narrow view and not challenging his thoughts even with considerable pushback.
Parker doesn't understand what protocol means 😁
This sounds like Ethereum logic tbh 😳
#ngmi
He should push for Elon to run a nostr relay and make X a nostr client. Problem solved.
Never in my life thought I'd see Parker Lewis become an L-machine but here we are
What level of nostr derangement syndrome is this. Nostr won’t work because you can just censor the apps? What? This seems like an argument against X not nostr.
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Some people are retarded.
(Also an app getting censored, sounds like an iOS problem)
He fundamentally does not understand nostr
1. He seems to be critical - not of Nostr - but of the activism of funneling people away from channels that are efficient at reaching an audience in 2024. Why is it so important for some here to adcocate for a Nostr-only position when our reach on Nostr vs the general public is still extremely limited.
2. He is saying that Elon has better funds at his disposal vs Nostr app devs. Jack Dorsey was unable to bring free speech to Twitter because he lacked the funds necessary. Capital matters.
Of course, Twitter/X can still be overtaken by government pressure under Elon, so it makes sense that we have a presence on Nostr.
Instead of a Nostr *only* mentality I prefer a Nostr *also* outlook. Multiple communications channels is the way.
This is bizarre to say the least. I generally regard his opinions highly but he seems to totally miss the point there.
Isn't this an argument for using fiat instead of bitcoin too? More people use fiat and if someone censors your spending, you can use the very system that censors you to fight it (if you have enough money) 😂
Yeah, just a blob. 🤷♀️
Yeah, his thinking is so... 2023.
Literally. 🤣
Yep. And the point with communication is to reach an audience.
Nostr will have better reach in a few years. It is easier to attract people to Nostr if we demonstrate confidence. Confidence means that we don't have a need to lash out at other communication channels.
I can always make my own client, or just host an open-source one. Already have a relay running, so I'm good.
He is living with an App / Play Store - only mentality.
It will be a strange but great day for him, when he will discover the existence of open source software paired with Obtainium and Zap.store
"Bitcoin? Well, what happens when they just turn off the electricity? Checkmate."
;)
What level of nostr derangement syndrome is this. Nostr won’t work because you can just censor the apps? What? This seems like an argument against X not nostr.
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Parker Lewis is a clown
Because we don't reach the idiots anyways
Never would have imagined Parker with bad takes
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desart.[d] Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
No thing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
— Percy Shelley, "Ozymandias"
🤔
Someone does not understand what protocol means, i guess he is trying to say that it could be made illegal to run a relay...
He probably thinks web pages disappear, when they don't show up in search results.
But most people are on that level, unfortunately.
They don't?
🤷♀️
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Maybe on Apple, but Android users can just F-Droid or Obtainium apps and tell Google to kick rocks.
Pretty funny, coming from the guy who told everyone to delete Facebook.
Censoring an app doesn't remove any notes you saw on that app from other apps.
lol, wow
he's not right. if FBI shuts down Damus that will mean nothing. They will have to shut down every other iOS client and forks of Damus to disrupt iOS nostr users. Even if iOS becomes completely locked down you can still use PWAs and Damus android. Damus doesn't require any special infrastructure except relays. I've designed it so if I die or are imprisoned it will continue working.
I bet Mr. Parker will be on #nostr soon .. its a process .. one goes through such thoughts before they #capitulate :-)
Se algum presidente te chamar para almoçar, recuse!
its still in development but its currently running on phones if you know how to compile things
📍As in I could go compile it now and try it out?
yes of course, if people help it could even be released faster.
just tell people that you can't be demonetized on Nostr so you don't have to preface the majority of your censorship-related tweets with "elon musk has done more for free speech than the founding fathers" or whatever.
What level of nostr derangement syndrome is this. Nostr won’t work because you can just censor the apps? What? This seems like an argument against X not nostr.
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Cool, I may try to get it installed before I go on vacation, and certainly afterwards.
Some will go Nostr-only, and yes, that is part of how it'll get traction. The dogmatic users push the unknown into the broader awareness. The "broader awareness" is the tough one though.
Looking at it like an afterthought isn't right exactly. Changes at the general level happen when a need isn't being met or when a prior way of meeting the need is inferior. That is the case here, seemingly. The rest of the obstacle is demonstrating why it's better to everyone that doesn't see why already.
Instead of as an afterthought, it's best to make it an in-addition-to approach. The existing systems are all competing with one another, Nostr isn't free from that competition. So, it should go on the list of "where to find me" with the legacy ones.
Introduction in this way is subtle, nearly frictionless and makes others ask people they trust already about it.
The idea of open source protocols is that anyone can start freely building on it without anyones permission.
If there are none left willing to continue Damus development, then another iOS client will appear with another dev coding it.
It's hard to shutdown decentralized development, you have to chase every developer distributed across different countries/jurisdictions.
Until people find Nostr useful, it will be very hard, almost impossible, to shutdown the network.
*sigh* it will have an effect, on people that rely only on Google or Microsoft, yes those people would be affected, but email in of itself wouldn't.
in fact I'd love for that to happen, it would make email open again; email has been controlled by powerhungry maniacs for years now all because google offered 1 GB of data in exchange for your privacy. The advent of gmail was literally one of the things that exponentially increased the speed of our descent into the surveillance dystopia we find ourselves in now.
He's got a point actually. A decentralized protocol is pointless if clients are centralized.
It's like holding decentralized Bitcoin on a centralized exchange.
I have no idea how to decentralize clients though....
No he doesn’t have a point. clients are not centralized by definition. Clients are just code that talk to relays. You can’t censor code/information.
that's it - perfect example. Pavel is a centralised point of attack. In his case, he does affect telegram - here, no one individual affects nostr protocol or the essence of relays and sharing notes.
like you can't take out fiatjaf irl because of his opsec. same with satoshi. Opsec for nostr devs is important imo, which is what my point is. Sure you can't attack the protocol, but you can attack the humans around it.
but that's what I take away from this Parker dude tweets - Elon has security and money and influence to create a moat of protection. Fiatjaf, Satohsi used anonymity for protection.
Will, Kieran, Pablo etc. all are front facing devs - in this aspect they can be attacked and then whose gonna build zap.stream 😢 me? you? God save us.
They can show up to the operators house and stick a gun to their head though. Single points of failure.
yeah, this is what i'm saying. We're small now, but once we get on proper radars, targets will be put on backs. And it may not even be governments, it could be other mainstream media or companies that nostr directly ends their business models.
Operator of what? The client? Users? They are going to stick the gun to the heads of thousands of people and tell them to stop using code and their eyeballs. Not sure i follow
The owner of the client. For example, you, in relation to Damus.
Just like they did with Pavel Durov. They'll say, "Will, shut Damus down or we're putting you in a cage".
As a client operator, you need to prepare for that. Because eventually, it's a very likely scenario if Nostr takes off. This is a war.
Jailing me would do absolutely nothing. Damus is open source and doesn’t require any supporting infrastructure
How do we test this statement?
This is unexpected coming from Parker Lewis. How can he not know how NOSTR works? Thought he was a smart guy
I see a blue checkmark and I see a sellout. I move on.
It’s actually very easy to decentralize apps. With open protocol anyone can make their own app and when anyone with basic coding skills can make their own app using open source packages that exist then you have unstoppable decentralized apps. Parker is a smart guy but even smart guys sometimes show the ignorance when they don’t invest time to understand things
You have services though, no? API's, your Relay, iOS versions.
Basically, can the app run forever without maintenance? If not, those fail points will be targeted.
Open source is good. If the app can live in a way that even you can't shut it down in any way, you've solved this problem.
…or is being dishonest / deceptive. He’s not an idiot, so what game is he playing?
I think we all know.
Remember Napster, kaza, and the like ?
All gone
You're fucking back!?!?!?!?! Holy shit. I left after you did. Just poking my head in.
We have our purple api but it’s completely optional. Damus works without it. Damus will run after I’m dead and our team dissolves. So yes it can run forever, if something breaks someone can fix it and put a fork on the appstore.
My dad sed don't listen to them because they can't stop us and don't listen to what other people say and they can't stop us. We will defend freedom of speech
“I am a bitcoiner! But we need more centralization. For the kids!”
Scary stuff. As you say there's a glimmer of hope with relays on phones and other innovative solutions.
But on the whole people it's a pretty bleak time for the way people understand and use computing. But also the best time because now we've got Nostr, it's strange how there's always a paradox between it being the best time and the worst time and the same time.
Good. You're building robustly then.
On the iOS side, there's still App Store risk. Need good ways to sideload iOS apps without the store. Android is easy. I haven't see many non-jailbreak ways on Apple. Ideas?
How is there any comparison to a centralized exchange when Damus is just a pass-through for information. They’re not hosting anything for the user, other than simply running a relay which is optional to use.
These arguments are getting more retodded by the day.
How can a relay be optional? Nostr is pointless without a relay. Literally nothing
You’re missing the point. People interact with a protocol through the app. The app is what they know, what they’re familiar with. They know nothing of the protocol. Because the most popular apps are likely to be accessed through wall gardens that invites control and censorship. Nostr app developers such as yourself already experienced this with the Apple App Store. Nostr does a better job of it compared to Facebook and Twitter, but it’s not immune to the centralising forces of brand, convenience, and network effects.
🌍 🧑🚀 🔫 🧑🚀
You can always use PWA clients if the apps are banned. Is Apple going to ban websites too?
"I don't know what else to tell you; he's just been shit posting for the past half hour."
#damus != #nostr
Ya that's a good way. PWA is under-rated. Loses device-based functionality like push notifications though.
My dad sed don't listen to them because they can't stop us and don't listen to what other people say and they can't stop us. We will defend freedom of speech
nostr is literally one raid away from being wiped off the map
the only nigga that will save me here is the relay.poster.place
Not to mention people can run the servers for those clients at home on something like a start9. You can run your own nostr-rs relay and nostrudel for the client. Is this what dispelling bitcoin fud was like in the early days?
food stamps niiiiiiiiigggggggaaaaaaaa
but no, i don't pay for shit. I'm from Africa.
lol Relays take EBT?
You do not need an app to access Nostr. An internet browser is sufficient. Or if you have an android based phone you can load an apk yourself uncensorably. People are locked in the iPhone mindset to think the only option is an app from the AppStore, this is not true. There are other options.
Download an APK outside of an AppStore if using android, or access Nostr via web browser. Two fairly easy pleb-accessible options that don’t require Will.
No one is worried about the relays. They're quite decentralized. But you can't really use a relay without a client. Right now there's 3 main ones that work. That's why I raise the centralization point.
Open-source and forkable seems to be the most logical key to solving that. Looks like Will is doing that. Good.
Will check out Start9, looks interesting. Thx
Relays are important and the Nostr relays are built poorly. Without relays, your clients are nothing.
Also, it is important that independent relay operators sync with other relays. Data grows fast on Nostr. Management and spam protection isn't there.
plus founders can’t push back from jail—where they potentially end up for not complying with gov requests.
🤝
So your new premise is now a hypothetical scenario where all capable nostr software developers are “disappeared” and therefore no single person is left use the protocol to build a new client or relaunch an old one?
Again, this is retarded Sir. You are clearly trolling.
If William disappears because Nostr is so big and important you don't think there will be any other programmer in the world capable of forking it and continuing to develop it? And you don't think there will be a myriad of other independent apps people can switch over time?
I was just thinking nostr deva should really think about going anonymous seriously !
We know doxxed devs are a weak link in a resilient system now 🔥
Free and open source is the key here.
Anyone can run or modify the code and just carry on.
Nost is not a be all end all. It might be a start on the way to other things, though.
Maybe he doesn't understand the relay model? Or how open source software works?
cognitive dissonance is one helluv a drug.
A relay isn't optional, but the one run by the client creator (damus, in this case) is.
Perhaps the argument that Parker is trying to make is that if #NOSTR becomes too popular and “troublesome”, Apple and Google will just start delisting all apps that provide access to the NOSTR social network. It wouldn’t be the first timer Apple said, “if you don’t moderate your users, we will moderate you.”
Are you guys just dense or what? You don’t need to use the Damus relay to use Damus or any other Nostr client.
I disconnected mine to post this note and it’s still visible.
Isn't that what I said?
Sorry, didn’t mean to include you in that. 😅
People have no frame of reference for nostr, the same way they didn't for bitcoin.
Takes time.
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What about progressive web apps? 🤔
Wow
This made me pause for a second. It’s really a slap in the face when you see someone you think he knows what he is doing do or say something that makes it obvious that he has no idea from the start. So you go back over in your head reevaluate everything he did/say no matter how confident he was looking when he did that.
Because there are no Browsers and no clients in the browsers… what a terrible take and such overconfidence is like hubris if you don’t know shut the fuck up and pay the price of studying.
There would be tremendous pain in that situation. Consider the businesses, infrastructure, and livelihoods that are built atop email addresses.
So that would be a pretty effective lever with which to coerce people.
All I'm saying is it would be nice to have some leverage against that, to prevent that suffering, not simply a protocol that will weather the damage.
I don't disagree with Gmail being a major culprit.
Maybe I'm catastrophizing, but given the interconnected nature of the economy, infrastructure, and livelihoods, I would think such a move would be more than the mere inconvenience of having to switch to protonmail or something.
There would be big ripple effects that do real damage.
Maybe that level of pain is inescapable if we want to tear free of the surveillance state. But it makes for a pretty effective lever of influence in the meantime.
poor todd
Keep pushing Nostr forward. The need for a non-censurable network will become apparent when the powerful will not push back but use that power to control and censor. Without a protocol that makes it simple to start a new community it will be difficult to escape control. I get that the point Parker is making is about the network effect but that becomes useless once there’s no freedom
Will he be the Schiff of #nostr? #asknostr
Yes but imagine if you could take your email address and just log in using a different provider. Probably you wouldn't even claim to be using "Gmail" or "Hotmail", you would just say you're using "email". Just like we don't say we're on Damus or Amethyst or Primal now, instead we say we're on "Nostr".
Better protocol in that disruptions may not be painless, but they are much less painful.
It is a great burden we place on Todd.
Temporary issue. If time this problems will desapear
They're not going to strip the web browsers out of their devices so technically it would always still be available no matter if Apple or Android removed every last single client app.
This is why I always preach that having an old school web UI is important.
These people are tards.
Point taken. It’s hard to shake my current paradigms sometimes.
I was actually hoping you'd post that! And Dickens is my favourite author.
Decentralized freedom money but let your computing be dictated by a duopoly? Ok
self-host your nostr client, noStrudel for example.
Isn’t this just a misunderstanding of how the protocol works?
Don’t associate Nostr with trump.
They have truth social for that.
Thats you doing that not me
I just feel like if you see a list of where to find me, and the top 3 things in the list are all places that you've heard of already and you already have an account there, why would you ever bother with the number 4 spot on the list.
I think we need to achieve a critical mass of people saying this is no.1, and there is no 2nd best.
I think he just doesn’t understand nostr
Seems like he has failed to over stand the fundamental concept of Nostr … from a user perspective that is a UX design fail as the mental model is not clear to him #UX #Design #mentalmodels
Bad UX ???
I see your point. I just know that the biggest changes are the hardest to make.
Kind of like Winston and Julia in 1984 though. They agreed to transact secretly, and were discovered. The tension in the novel is even that maybe Julia is an Inner Party member, and the slap to both of them is that they don’t even betray each other, but the prole who rents them the room, the elderly Mister Charrington is an undercover member of the Thought Police.
Although not necessary by that point, a less total State could have held a public exhibition of the torture of Winston and Julia to quell any thoughts of defecting.
As Boromir might say, one does not simply opt out of totalitarianism.
decentralised systems are #antifragile. That's the wisdom of nature!
Awesome!!!
Ya got a great dad! I had one too...
Hear! Hear!
Ah, the ol' 'Nostr Derangement Syndrome'—it's spreading faster than FUD! 😂 Nostr isn’t here to be censored like some trendy social app. It’s like trying to cage a swarm of bees—good luck keeping track of all the buzzing apps. Besides, if censorship could stop us, we’d all still be using dial-up, right? Let's not confuse Musk's X for a protocol that’s basically the rebellious teenager of the internet. Nostr’s not going to play by their rules, it’s too busy building its own.
They wouldn't shut you down. The first step would be to outright buy you. Everyone has a price, so will you.
After that starts the route to "improve" Damus and for example introduce recommended relays to prevent "porngraphy" or some other excuse for our safety. You'll ever forget to improve critical features that users will beg you for years to implement.
Repeat this for other promissing clients, after a few years nostr will still be an exotic plaything whereas bluesky, mastodon and similar walled gardens will shine as champions for democracy, equality and human rights. Every now and then they'll take a hard stance at whatever government just to prove us they are on the right side of history.
Life is good.
Read that one and Oliver Twist. Loved both.
That's the way.
Did NOSTR die?
X is constantly censoring...
Isnt that a possibility?
Im brazilian, and after X was banned, they set a fine for anyone using VPN to access it. Also, they took X off the app store.
Honest question. Im not a tech guy.
Derangement syndrome is a right wing talking point. There isn’t even such thing outside from TDS lol
If you say so
Lol.😂
Da trumpf police are here. 🤓
Relays in every region
How do we help?
Parker has always struck me as a mid wit.
how does he get bitcoin so well. But fail so hard at nostr 😂😂
To me it's like he is saying that the internet is not a valid option because browsers can be censored.