Replies (133)
Ok.
It could be DVMs, but clients would need to add support. People could send a list of trusted pubkeys to the DVM. The DVM would filter 1984 from these trusted pubkeys (there could additionally be default censors if people really wish for that, as long as there's a choice to use them or not) and then the DVM would return a list of people to the client to avoid showing in the feed.
(or the client does that but with Dvms you could take that to every client that supports that feature)
this is by no means a solution but on Damus you can limit notifications and DMs to only people you follow and the people they follow
Nostr should be the most true that you can be. You can't be censored and you're in control of your content and feed. Do you feel like you can't be yourself?
Kayla,
@jb55 was literally inspired to build Damus because of his friend
@๐๐ท๐๐.๐ฅ๐ฒ๐๐ฎ๐ท ๐ธ๐ป and what happens to her and people like her online.
This is true ๐ ๐๐ซ
Because I don't have your lived experience I'm not familiar with the harrassment/hate. I'm sorry to hear about it. But I take it very seriously, and so I want to escalate implementing reporting and labelling features in the gossip client. These are defined in NIP-32 and NIP-56. We have a lot on our plate so it may be two versions out, but we didn't even have it slated previously.
I once said I called my client 'gossip' because I thought it would be more appealing to women. That comment was not received well by some women. I'm terribly sorry to have such an ignorant man-brain that thought women gossip more than men. I said what I thought was true, but I guess I was wrong, and I'm sorry.
We all forgive you for man-brain, but because you said something and are willing to do something about it! Thank you for hearing feedback and understanding how it comes off to others. I appreciate you ๐ซ
You can mute/block and report on Nostr. It's up for clients to do whatever they want with those reports. For example, on Amethyst, if enough of your follows report someone and block someone, you will automatically block them too. It's part of your Web of Trust.
And this is I feel what needs to be explored and expanded upon. A Web of Trust scores and indicators can be very useful and powerful for users to have positive experiences online. It allows us to build our communities and our networks without groups of trust, just like in real life.
When it all boils down to it, we're never going to stop people from being assholes. If someone wants to have a corner of Nostr with a few hundred assholes all circle jerking one another, then they can have it. The other 99.99% of the world will be here dominating the space with love and positivity that is fueled by human connections and zaps.
Zaps are a key part of this puzzle. We're incentivized to be nice, kind, and positive to get zaps. Sure, assholes can zap one another, but in the end there's more of us than them. We are the signal. They're just noise. And our zaps far out weigh theirs.
@Mike Dilger โ๏ธ - what features are possible besides block? Is it based on WoT that would reduce the need to block? For instance a user could set a threshold of at least 20 or could it be that a minimal zap amount is set?
I ask because I'm only aware of muting so curious what else you could do with your client.
And whites
Iโm struggling to understand both of these notes, as a female on Nostr and I have been here well over a year I have never felt chased off, attacked or threatened on Nostr.
Sure I have had plenty of trolls or people that think they are trolls but itโs quite simple to mute and move on. Yes Iโve had heated debates on Nostr that were meant to make me feel uncomfortable and unwanted but hey itโs a free world and I choose to still be here and make myself heard.
I think if you are going to put yourself out there on social media you must expect some type of negativity whether male or female and if you choose to engage in debates, hell I have received more harassment and hate from other platforms than from Nostr.
Donโt get me wrong, Iโm truly sorry that you were made to feel that way. ๐ซ๐
you are built different, marie. doesn't mean it doesn't take a toll on others.
The fucking mute button doesn't fucking work.
People could subscribe to a censor. Then if that censor issues a 1984 event, the client could mute that event.
Donโt get me wrong Iโm definitely not blaming the person being harassed, itโs happened to me many times on the other platforms and will continue.
All I am saying is that there are and always will be keyboard warriors and trolls so people need to be aware, mute and move on - and when I say move on I mean concentrate on the positive people they are friends with and this is just the internet, people may want to base their spend more time in the real world as well.
The whole world is not mean in my opinion, there are good and bad people out there everywhere it good to know and life is about navigating through it all.
Shit donโt change until majority take a stand. Ignoring it or sweeping it under the rug does not ever improve things
the majority of people on nostr want the chaos. they like that they can say whatever they want...and those that can't handle it will venture back to safer feeling spaces or offline.
Are there other social media platforms that are safer?
In my experience they are worse, but that is just my experience.
I have definitely seen previous instances of women being harassed and threatened on Nostr. Different people are going to respond to these things in different ways obviously.
I think the problem with simply just muting is that it doesnโt stop the user that has been muted from commenting & interacting and others are still able to view these comments. I donโt think this it is an easy problem to solve on Nostr..
I think the others are safer. it would be impossible for me to see any women hating content on let's say, Instagram, because they have an algorithm there. all I ever see is cat pics and knitting photos. the algo has taken years to learn about me and has put me in a very safe bubble of content that I want to see.
that's the deal with nostr though, isn't it. Because there is no algorithm here, a person sees everything and they themselves are responsible for curating their content. each person has to find their tribe to feel a sense of belonging and acceptance, otherwise they don't see the value of nostr as a social network and they leave.
the state of nostr right now is that the user population is low and the majority of users are men. Good, socialized, well-meaning men but also some are very poorly socialized men who are attracted by cutting edge tech, radical politics and fringe economics. People tend to bubble up with those like them. Other social medias do very well keeping the boundaries of these groups very strong via algorithms. Two people can be really into fitness but the gym bros and the granola yogis will rarely cross paths.
nostr doesnt have strong boundaries because there's no algorithm. the big bubbles bully the smaller ones. Eventually they pop and disappear because no one wants to stay in a space where they're unwelcome.
Instead of implementing tech tools to mimic social control, it is more important for the longevity and growth of nostr to draw more different types of people in. We need to help and grow the minor bubbles so that there isn't an overpowering majority. I think that is when we'll have much safer spaces on nostr.
Thatโs uncensored protocol, and that is why most of us are here.
Agree itโs not ideal and may never be on a platform such as this.
collective labeling of hate, web of trust filtering and then being able to filter your experience based on the communities flags in an function users can set before they,read their first note is the way we protect people and keep the nostr...nostr-y. all with opt-in featuring so users still can choose to take the well lit street or the dark alley ๐ค
in an easy initial setup function*
I can see a future where there is a blue sky style moderation layer that people can subscribe to voluntarily to block out content that is obviously spammy/trolly
On some level a large portion of Bitcoin community in general is anti safe space. This is an issue we've been fighting since the very beginning
I don't disagree.
I guess I prefer the cypherpunk strategy.
For example, the U.S. government should not attack our privacy, but that's a moot point.
The U.S. government does attack our privacy. Protesting the government for a redress of our grievances is unlikely to accomplish our goals. **It shouldn't be that way, but it is**.
Therefore, it makes sense to create tools that make it impossible to attack our privacy.
In the same way, if people attack you because of your identity, it makes sense to hide your identity.
Again, this is not how I wish the world to be, but it is the world I see.
At least you can fight back as viciously as you want to and not worry about getting banned for it.
I think age matters a lot. I'm old enough to have spent time on early 4chan. Those people were PROFESSIONAL trolls. Now, if you bug me, I just block and roll on. ๐คทโโ๏ธ
I am that woman who did not like women labelled as gossipers =)
It's a pet peeve for me to bitch about people when you have a million better things to talk about. I'd rather talk to you about an issue that's related to you then to someone else and bitch about you. Make sense?
And if I am talking to you about someone else, that's likely because i trust you enough to have a healthy conversation about it. This circle of trust for me is very small.
That doesn't mean women or men do not gossip - many do and its really bad - but i would not like to be labelled as one based on my gender.
That and really, have you seen how much more men gossip - jk! =)
Anyway, you referring to what gossip was defined based on, does not mean you are a mean person, Mike. And a far cry on the attacks women get. You are probably just an innocent idiot geek who thought you could build something to meet more women =) It took me a while to understand men are idiot sometimes (i don't mean this in a bad way).
Re : On the main issue of this thread - A lot of people are unable to get into a healthy debate and separate personal attacks. There is a severe lack of emotional intelligence and just good manners.
Some of the shitty things men say here are really nasty - I was called a whore for talking about homemade face products, one recently was triggered when i was talking abt tech.
i could have responded ego vs ego but quite frankly i don't have the time to sit down and convince some random stranger i don't give two hoots about nor let him affect how i should run my life so i ignored like i have many others. Doesn't mean it doesn't upset me, nor have I not reacted in the past. I just rather engage with what is relevant and important to me now.
If I am responding here, then its because you matter to me. It's as simple as that.
That also doesn't mean women are not shitty either. I've seen one here cry abuse on sexual harassment, and then verbally sexually harass Jack. I've seen one who puts other people down and get sympathy from the public. Women can be just as vulgar, rude and inappropriate.
It also doesn't mean men should not call out bad behaviors from men or women, its a free world. But there is a diff between personal attacks and calling out bad behaviours, and how you do it.
Can you give an example of the harrassment or hate?
Are people sending inappropriate DMs?
Toxic masculinity again. Men should just be women and women should be lesbians, problem solved?
The funny thing about being a nym is that the women are the WORST harassers. Before you shoot, I'm a woman. And a mother. And black. And over 50. Take your "ism" of choice ๐ค
Youโre the toxic masculinity, donโt project that shit on me ๐๐๐
Las adoro ๐๐๐
Living your life must be hard. Whew.
Glad to have you here ๐
Nah. I am a privileged white straight man.
My life is just peachy.
Isnโt that what you want to hear? ๐
Donโt mute. Donโt engage.
They definitely can be
This ๐ผ๐ฏ
Mute and move on. The power of uncensored social media.
๐ซ๐ซ๐
And we love you Marie ๐ค
Yes it was you ๐. "You are probably just an innocent idiot geek who thought you could build something to meet more women" is not the case. Oh sure, I'm innocent. And sure I'm a geek. But I am not trying to "meet more women". I quit trying to "meet more women" at age 35 when [REDACTED]. After that I have zero interest in meeting women. It wasn't just her, every relationship brought me more work and pain and suffering than it brought me good. They were always net-negatives for me. It took me far to long too recognize. I'm very happy now living alone, and looking back, seeking women and in particular being in a relationship with someone was always the most unhappy part of my life. Why would I fuck up my good life now? I wouldn't.
It is a personality thing. It seems that this is not true for most people. Most people do better with a partner. I'm one of the few people who doesn't.
And to quell rumors about what was redacted: no I don't have an STD, no I have never been violent towards anybody, no I have never had a drug or alcohol problem.
I wanted nostr to grow as much as possible and I didn't think a sausage party would be ameniable to growth.
Awww love you too ๐๐ซ
Would it not be fairly straightforward to have a client that would allow you to browse while temporarily muting users who the thread maker has muted?๐ค
โฆand that was a boring comment.
Your page is a real thrill gangrenous enjoy this mute ๐ฅ
๐คฆ๐ปโโ๏ธ๐คฆ๐ปโโ๏ธ๐คฆ๐ปโโ๏ธ
they always miss the point...
I just wanna shake them! ๐
I think that would be possible but I donโt think any clients implement that today? The notes are still written to the relays though so would still be visible in clients that donโt implement this type of filtering.
The other option might be to do it at the relay level. The relay would look at a userโs mute list to determine if an interaction with their notes is allowed. Iโm not sure if that could be made efficient though and would rely on all relays implementing this functionality to be useful.
What's the solution? Do you have any ideas you can share?
Don't apologize. Life's a bitch and then you die. Get over it..๐๐
I could have handled that gossip conversation better, and for that i am sorry. i felt bad reading your note realizing you positioned yourself among the attackers after that, its a far cry from it. And thanks for explaining your real purpose and intent, and while i disagree on labeling women as gossipers, having diverse groups and conversations are much better and maybe we can explore other ways. PS : sorry about your past, you learn something from every relationship and it makes you a better person. Hope you are happy regardless! you're cool Mike. take care!
@semisol any thoughts or ideas?
I don't think projecting is what he wants..๐ฆ๐๐
๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ
Oh God no... Please Nooo..๐ฒ๐ซ๐
I donโt, thatโs why Iโm talking about it ๐ Ask me anything about human behavior and I got you, but when it comes to anything tech wise Iโm completely lost. Lots of other people have had some great ideas!
Some people are just too beautiful to live..๐ป๐คฃ
๐ณ
๐๐ฅฐ๐๐ซโฅ๏ธ๐๐
Pretty sure theyโre just kidding, not to be taken seriously ๐
cool, can i borrow some booze from you, i know you have it
Absolutely ๐ท
And I thought my wine glasses were big. Time to go shopping for some great big wine glasses.
Already looking into this, there are some โsmartโ options to help with this using modern tech ๐ถ๐พ๐ซก
Same Marie. Same :)
I find this puzzling. I've literally never been harassed on Nostr in the 7 or 8 months I've been here. I've muted a handful of accounts because there's some shit that I just don't need on my radar, but even that wasn't directed at me.
No moderation means that it's up to us - mute freely, post freely, zap freely - but along the way we will no doubt be exposed to stuff that we don't like.
In any case, Kayla - I'm sorry this is happening to you!
[And to all the folks who are building out Nostr, whatever your gender, you have my immense gratitude ๐๐]
I'm still making my way through the comments, but this is the first time in this discussion that I've seen this raised. I don't think most folks know that muting doesn't always work.
yet to see any evidence of this
If nothing else, these posts have been awesome bait for people to add to my mute list. (to be clear, the responses, not OP)
Thatโs how I feel too ๐ฅฒ
I have a friend that's very good at solving this problem using clear communication, like an adult. She jokingly asks her friends "are you coming to me expecting a male response (looking for a solution), or a female response (looking to vent)?
surely you can switch your background color to pink
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n the pursuit of financial gains, lets not overlook the broader impacts. Remember, responsible investment practices and mindful decision-making can lead to a more sustainable and equitable future for all.
If you havenโt join the rebelcapitalist newsletter yet then, I think it's high time you take a look , very effective community with top notch expertise. you can easily 100x some position with the current trend.
Source:
Telegram
The Rebel Capitalist Show
RebelCapitalist is an invaluable resource for aspiring investors, offering insights from top investors that can guide you towards financial success...
๐ซ๐
There are men who tell women to stop complaining and be grateful for what they have, and men who listen closely to womens' complaints, think about it a bit, and build something better.
Definitely more work is needed on client interoperability. I agree that stuff like the mute function is important and should work consistently. I donโt envy nostr devs, stuff like this is 10x harder on decentralized platforms.
Yes, well, they're here because they want to make a name for themselves doing something hard.
So, here's some more hard stuff. ๐
Plenty more hard stuff, once they're done with that. I've got a whole list.
I'm not sure if it'd even be possible either without the relay forcing the REQ to include the requestors own pubkey in order to see if it has been muted by the other pubkey and therefore restricted from fetching the other person's notes. Would add a lot of additional overhead imo. Which is likely why most have defaulted to letting the client handle that side of things.
Though, perhaps there could be a NIP that's used across clients/relays where a new kind (like a mute list, similar to follow list) is stored that clients could use and determine how to handle blocking those who have been muted. That way, one user on Damus can mute/block someone and that someone no longer sees those notes on Amethyst.
Great note my friend. Been thinking this over the last week, just not able to articulate it quite as well as yourself.
I'm a massive bitcoin fan and have been stacking Sat's. That said, I also don't have an issue with other cryptos and do hold some of the more promising projects.
I'd also like to be able to talk sport, music etc.
The issue I see is that if your not chatting only bitcoin or steaks, you are not welcome here. From what I've seen anyway.
This doesn't seem to fit in with the adoption that everyone wants.
Just my opinion so far. Hope to be proven wrong soon.
๐
I am long hair, geek from childhood and now entrepreneur, free schooling and Bitcoin enthusiast. In a post-communist country.
I was marginalized whole live almost everywhere, except for Nostr.
I also have woman, gay or transgender friends who are not afraid to talk about their problems.
Don't tell me I cannot understand just because I am white straight man.
Each to their own I guess but I understand where you are coming from.
I donโt talk about bitcoin or steaks all the time, so I do welcome all.
Iโm just a shitposter donโt mind me here on Nostr ๐ท๐
Consider yourself followed then Marie.
Was quite a generalisation. Aware there are those just enjoying the lack of algorithm like myself.
I think the clients usually pull everything from the relay and then hide stuff from mutes, but they should probably only pull metadata from mutes (like npub, username, relays), not notes, reactions, zaps, etc.
Then you could find someone, to unmute them, without their stuff showing up embedded in other people's quotes/reposts/replies or in notifications.
That seems so George Orwell-ian.
So if you don't like a particular man, you want the power to get him banned and silence his freedom of speech? That doesn't seem very nostrish.
Pretty much nothing, except make you a bigger target for retaliation.
Check out the song:
Kate Nash - Dickhead
I think you may enjoy it.
Yeah that sounds like a better way to deal with it assuming the clients implemented support for it. Iโm not sure that any solution to this really has a lot of benefit. If someone really wants to interact with a user that has muted them then it is easy to work around any blocking mechanism just by using a new key pair.
That's a downside to posting things to the internet. Even the people you don't want to access it, can.
Agreed. I think that's where leveraging WoT could help degrade an attack's visibility.
Not perfect, of course. Would be an asinine equivalency, such as saying a WAF will stop 100% of all attacks. An improbability, no doubt. Though, it may *reduce* the impact, which is still important.
Same. ๐ Added like 50 mutes. Very efficient.
This made me smile ๐
buy more kittens we love you we want you we cuddle u long time make all bad thoughts gone gone hold me tight give me boops i lick your nose make u feel happy ๐ป
I think people choose how they feel
There's definitely a strong thread amongst certain types of women that when they can't control a new social environment or the behavior of it's participants in a way that they wish, they attempt to make it a gender thing, close ranks and force compliance. If that doesn't work they disappear or attempt to burn it to the ground. See intentional communities, for example ecovillage or commune type setups.
All women are welcome here. Just remember this is not something you can control beyond how you manage your own feed. ๐
"protect their freedom and free speech from women"???? LOL Seriously you're pathetic. The nostr devs didn't build the incel kingdom you're dreaming of. Why don't you just go ahead and create it yourself? and take your incel buddies with you
You lost me at โlived experienceโโฆ
Oh Iโm so sorry for using big words.
This just screams the entire issue Iโm talking about. Do some self-reflection please.
See, mute button and I never have to hear this bitch again. It's that fucking easy.
I think it must be a client feature. Seems to work okay through primal.
yeah we know the truth hurts, but incels would rather live in denial
Okay enough is not good enough.
Falรกcia do local de fala.
Bullshit.
Mas gostei da tentativa kkkkkk
Os princรญpios continuam. Aceitar eles รฉ ativente recusar os contrรกrios e intelectualmente incorrer em dissonรขncia cognitiva, no caso de defender ideia divergente.
Ativamente** perdรฃo o pt br pela metade
Exactly. For who else knows a little about formal logic, just shitty thinkers argument like that.
E sobre o "bloquear palavras ofensivas" se vc ainda tem dรบvidas do pq uma rede nรฃo deve filtrar isso e sim as pessoas, para si, sinto dizer q talvez vc esteja na rede errada irmรฃo.
Good, tell OP that as well. Because that's how NOSTR works. It's not going to take care of you; you need to take care of it! Go back to facebook if you want your censorship. If you can't deal with the opinions of other people then mute them, mute me.
you guys have been using shitty clients lol mute works really well on
@Nostur you cant even unmute until
@Fabian fixed that recently ๐
I don't have Apple anything, so I can't say anything about those clients.
Perhaps he was clever enough to account for mutes in the original relay query.
dont really need apple anything to use nostur, you just need a pc/laptop and hackintosh it to minimum monterey os (i know you dev guys are smart enough to figure it out but you rather install linux lol) and make an apple account to download it from the appstore
๐
As long as I made you smile, that makes me smile ๐
You did !! It was the Iโm female , black, over 50 & what? Maybe itโs a London thing ๐ฅ๐ซ
the world is built by men
Nah, love mine.
If I want some peace and quiet, I just stick to my own OnlyFrens relay. ๐งโโ๏ธ
I want you here I genuinely do. But I hate this victim mentality stuff. Itโs pure Marxism.
No one handed us this protocol. We made it because we didnโt like the status quo.
Itโs literally an open protocol and you can literally make your own female space if you choose to. It just requires sweat equity and competence.
Iโm tired of this mindset like men are going out of their way to hold women down. Itโs simply not the case and even if it were I promise there were plenty of Daniel Plainview archetypes that made their way in spite and who probably were more oppressed than most women. The victim hood stuff just holds you back. At some point you gotta just build because youโre one of very few that cares about your grievances. Welcome to freedom tech.
Also legitimate suggestion: check out
@npub13myx...v3qk which is a client centered around groups. You can moderate as you see fit there.
Look for Access Tribe they want to build women only communities and a client for them.
