Someone paying $389 to move $1.94.
547,000 sats to move 2730 sats.
Why?
Because this has nothing to do with Bitcoin and doesn't make any sense from the network's perspective.
People who take comfort that behaviour will remain predictable thanks to economically rational decision making need to know it goes both ways when you start taking in external factors.
You have to do it with miners too.
If a miner can make more money in ways that have nothing to do with bitcoin then you can no longer rely on simple assumptions like "miners will do X because if they don't then they will make less than a miner who does"
The simple example I've used many times is compliance.
If you have a choice between expensive legal battles and exclusion informed by government blacklists (i.e censorship) then it's economically rational to do what's economically irrational.
"You left $500 in TX fees on the table! Why?"
"Because our lawyers advised us that this would save us several million dollars."
We have a case-study of this exact scenario with Wasabi Wallet.
So if this is true, what does it have to do with spam? From a miner's perspective, spam is simply a free lunch.
What's the downside?
The issue is we've been standing on shaky ground when it comes to the assumptions we've made about the choices of miners. Myself included.
It turns out there are instances when economic rationality works *against* the interests of the wider network. It's obvious, but apparently we're all surprised that this it the case, or straight up in denial about it.
Spam is that exact scenario. Blocks are far larger than was ever supposed to be possible with the introduction of witness-discounted data. We see block after block at what was meant to be a theoretical maximum of just under 4MB.
There is no room for interpretation. This is simply harmful and the result of a nasty attack.
The entire basis on which the blocksize wars were fought was that encumbering nodes with way more data would lead to centralization. (Along with a host of other issues, like centralization of mining & pools).
The simple solution is that it needs to stop. Blocks cannot be stuffed with arbitrary data placed there by ambivalent miners.
The way this stops is as a natural extension of a bitcoin community that recognizes attacks and responds accordingly.
It means using node software that isn't designed to hurt its users which is already happening with migration away from Core to Knots. The most popular plug-n-play nodes have all begun offering this.
They did not this time last year.
It means miners choosing pools that at least give them the option of not participating in the attack -> currently well under 1% of the hashrate, 6 months ago not even an option. Hard for me to talk about because obviously I'm employed by the pool in question.
It means people who never mined doing it for the first time.
And mostly it means maintaining an understanding of what makes bitcoin bitcoin. That in itself has always been enough to evict crypto scammers to something other than Bitcoin. Those who wanted to turn it into "paypal 2.0" with the same disregard and contempt for nodes that the spam apologists display now forked themselves off to bcash and craigcoin.
The one thing that will *not* solve this problem is high transaction fees. This is an argument made by those who at least understand an attack when they see it, but are in denial about what surviving it actually involves.
Throughout the last few months the conversation has rapidly progressed and the tide has been turning.
I am under no illusions that this is an easy fix, but that is because of the nature of politics and how much larger the ecosystem is now.
But it's also just history repeating itself.
Bitcoin keeps having to fight the same battles again and again. Always in service of importance of being able to run *and use* a node, affordably and trivially, by complete noobs.
To maintain decentralization.
To resist the corrupting of what we have.
Bitcoin is money. Other features cannot come at the expense of that.
OP RETURN wars, bcash, segwit2x, shitcoins, coloredcoins, hostile BIPs, malicious devs....
We've done it a million times before. Every single time the "laser-eyed toxic maxis" win.
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Replies (43)
I did something like this not thinking. I sent my dad some sats from lightning or strike or something to his cold storage to show him how the QR codes work and it didn't show me the fees and I brain farted and confirmed payment.
Numb nuts.
Good to see you getting more active on Nostr. 🤘🏻
Is there any real fix except for a protocol hard fork? It seems that running different node software and joining separate mining pools is just not going to do anything.
It’s not clear to me that slightly larger blocks are existential failure. I would prefer the block size be reduced, but it seems annoying and detrimental but not something that will change bitcoins path.
The spammers will run out of money
A fork is the wrong path. Spam mitigation always occurs higher up than the protocol itself. You don't change SMTP to deal with email scams.
All we do is carry on as before, placing sensible limits at the mempool level. They're still respected it's just there's a new avenue now exploiting the carelessness around taproot.
Bocks aren't slightly larger - they should be around 1.5MB and they're just under 4MB.
That's a failure.
Slowly adapting.
💯
Someone paying $389 to move $1.94.
547,000 sats to move 2730 sats.
Why?
Because this has nothing to do with Bitcoin and doesn't make any sense from the network's perspective.
People who take comfort that behaviour will remain predictable thanks to economically rational decision making need to know it goes both ways when you start taking in external factors.
You have to do it with miners too.
If a miner can make more money in ways that have nothing to do with bitcoin then you can no longer rely on simple assumptions like "miners will do X because if they don't then they will make less than a miner who does"
The simple example I've used many times is compliance.
If you have a choice between expensive legal battles and exclusion informed by government blacklists (i.e censorship) then it's economically rational to do what's economically irrational.
"You left $500 in TX fees on the table! Why?"
"Because our lawyers advised us that this would save us several million dollars."
We have a case-study of this exact scenario with Wasabi Wallet.
So if this is true, what does it have to do with spam? From a miner's perspective, spam is simply a free lunch.
What's the downside?
The issue is we've been standing on shaky ground when it comes to the assumptions we've made about the choices of miners. Myself included.
It turns out there are instances when economic rationality works *against* the interests of the wider network. It's obvious, but apparently we're all surprised that this it the case, or straight up in denial about it.
Spam is that exact scenario. Blocks are far larger than was ever supposed to be possible with the introduction of witness-discounted data. We see block after block at what was meant to be a theoretical maximum of just under 4MB.
There is no room for interpretation. This is simply harmful and the result of a nasty attack.
The entire basis on which the blocksize wars were fought was that encumbering nodes with way more data would lead to centralization. (Along with a host of other issues, like centralization of mining & pools).
The simple solution is that it needs to stop. Blocks cannot be stuffed with arbitrary data placed there by ambivalent miners.
The way this stops is as a natural extension of a bitcoin community that recognizes attacks and responds accordingly.
It means using node software that isn't designed to hurt its users which is already happening with migration away from Core to Knots. The most popular plug-n-play nodes have all begun offering this.
They did not this time last year.
It means miners choosing pools that at least give them the option of not participating in the attack -> currently well under 1% of the hashrate, 6 months ago not even an option. Hard for me to talk about because obviously I'm employed by the pool in question.
It means people who never mined doing it for the first time.
And mostly it means maintaining an understanding of what makes bitcoin bitcoin. That in itself has always been enough to evict crypto scammers to something other than Bitcoin. Those who wanted to turn it into "paypal 2.0" with the same disregard and contempt for nodes that the spam apologists display now forked themselves off to bcash and craigcoin.
The one thing that will *not* solve this problem is high transaction fees. This is an argument made by those who at least understand an attack when they see it, but are in denial about what surviving it actually involves.
Throughout the last few months the conversation has rapidly progressed and the tide has been turning.
I am under no illusions that this is an easy fix, but that is because of the nature of politics and how much larger the ecosystem is now.
But it's also just history repeating itself.
Bitcoin keeps having to fight the same battles again and again. Always in service of importance of being able to run *and use* a node, affordably and trivially, by complete noobs.
To maintain decentralization.
To resist the corrupting of what we have.
Bitcoin is money. Other features cannot come at the expense of that.
OP RETURN wars, bcash, segwit2x, shitcoins, coloredcoins, hostile BIPs, malicious devs....
We've done it a million times before. Every single time the "laser-eyed toxic maxis" win.
View quoted note →
👇Important, Sensible, Urgent👇
Someone paying $389 to move $1.94.
547,000 sats to move 2730 sats.
Why?
Because this has nothing to do with Bitcoin and doesn't make any sense from the network's perspective.
People who take comfort that behaviour will remain predictable thanks to economically rational decision making need to know it goes both ways when you start taking in external factors.
You have to do it with miners too.
If a miner can make more money in ways that have nothing to do with bitcoin then you can no longer rely on simple assumptions like "miners will do X because if they don't then they will make less than a miner who does"
The simple example I've used many times is compliance.
If you have a choice between expensive legal battles and exclusion informed by government blacklists (i.e censorship) then it's economically rational to do what's economically irrational.
"You left $500 in TX fees on the table! Why?"
"Because our lawyers advised us that this would save us several million dollars."
We have a case-study of this exact scenario with Wasabi Wallet.
So if this is true, what does it have to do with spam? From a miner's perspective, spam is simply a free lunch.
What's the downside?
The issue is we've been standing on shaky ground when it comes to the assumptions we've made about the choices of miners. Myself included.
It turns out there are instances when economic rationality works *against* the interests of the wider network. It's obvious, but apparently we're all surprised that this it the case, or straight up in denial about it.
Spam is that exact scenario. Blocks are far larger than was ever supposed to be possible with the introduction of witness-discounted data. We see block after block at what was meant to be a theoretical maximum of just under 4MB.
There is no room for interpretation. This is simply harmful and the result of a nasty attack.
The entire basis on which the blocksize wars were fought was that encumbering nodes with way more data would lead to centralization. (Along with a host of other issues, like centralization of mining & pools).
The simple solution is that it needs to stop. Blocks cannot be stuffed with arbitrary data placed there by ambivalent miners.
The way this stops is as a natural extension of a bitcoin community that recognizes attacks and responds accordingly.
It means using node software that isn't designed to hurt its users which is already happening with migration away from Core to Knots. The most popular plug-n-play nodes have all begun offering this.
They did not this time last year.
It means miners choosing pools that at least give them the option of not participating in the attack -> currently well under 1% of the hashrate, 6 months ago not even an option. Hard for me to talk about because obviously I'm employed by the pool in question.
It means people who never mined doing it for the first time.
And mostly it means maintaining an understanding of what makes bitcoin bitcoin. That in itself has always been enough to evict crypto scammers to something other than Bitcoin. Those who wanted to turn it into "paypal 2.0" with the same disregard and contempt for nodes that the spam apologists display now forked themselves off to bcash and craigcoin.
The one thing that will *not* solve this problem is high transaction fees. This is an argument made by those who at least understand an attack when they see it, but are in denial about what surviving it actually involves.
Throughout the last few months the conversation has rapidly progressed and the tide has been turning.
I am under no illusions that this is an easy fix, but that is because of the nature of politics and how much larger the ecosystem is now.
But it's also just history repeating itself.
Bitcoin keeps having to fight the same battles again and again. Always in service of importance of being able to run *and use* a node, affordably and trivially, by complete noobs.
To maintain decentralization.
To resist the corrupting of what we have.
Bitcoin is money. Other features cannot come at the expense of that.
OP RETURN wars, bcash, segwit2x, shitcoins, coloredcoins, hostile BIPs, malicious devs....
We've done it a million times before. Every single time the "laser-eyed toxic maxis" win.
View quoted note →
All value is subjective. Good luck convincing folks otherwise, or restricting uses for the ledger.
What is the problem with having 4mb blocks? 2TB SSD's are pretty cheap these days. Filling 2TB will probably take another decade and the standard will likely be 4 or 8TB SSD's then.
Why is this an attack?
Its not a problem of transaction fees, block size or network transfer. The primary issue is growth rate of the UTXO set which inscriptions and bitcoin stamps exacerbate. We need to focus on solving that for longterm Bitcoin benefit
So they are creating too many UTXO'S too fast? If it continues we might need more computing power like running nodes over a GPU or something?
it puts increasing strain on the initial block download process.
also, not all users of Bitcoin live in affluent western counteries where bleeding edge consumer storage devices are cheap & abundant...
Had no idea Mechanic was on nostr! I won't pretend to understand all the issues with Bitcoin mining at the moment but I want to start running a node and potentially mining. How can we boobs contribute to solving these issues and keeping Bitcoin decentralized?
Two things:
1. Can you elaborate on the case study with Wasabi? Do you mean that they are working with Chainalasys? Maybe @Max you know what Bitcoin Mechanic means?
2. I agree with you that it’s spam and want to do my part.
That is running a knots node instead of core, correct?
Anything else?
Why is that a problem?
If you understand Bitcoin, the reason reason for this transaction is a ridiculous status flex, you’re attacking Bitcoin or you’re a miner doing some funny business.
It makes your bitcoin node less portable . Initial block download more costly
I think the biggest issue are higher tx fees.
Stupid jpegs lock hundreds of millions of people out of using the base layer & lightning without custodians.
People who need bitcoin can’t use it because of grifters selling imaginary bananas on the blockchain to fucking retards.
Basically more UTXOs = more data?
The coinjoin coordinator has an opportunity cost of the fees foregone from any utxo that gets banned.
👍🏽 got it
Yes it is the state of bitcoin , if you want to be sovereign you have to keep this you can't prune it, there are no limits on how much it can grow
EXACTLY!... "Every single time".
We all agree. It's an attack on #Bitcoin. But if #Ocean and #Knots can filter out spam and other garbage. So can every other miner.
I will be blocking miners from my nodes If they fail to filter out garbage, starting with the big boys first. I encourage all other nodes to do the same.
Nor am I opposed to the addition of DDOS either. Nothing like a good game of chicken..💀😠🧡
Yes, see my post above...
People from poor countries have a Right; to run a node too...
🫡 💯👍
View quoted note →
So filling blocks with spam needs to become shameful rather than profitable.
Amen! PS how much of Roger Ver is saying is true? I am a Johnny-come-lately, but I care about truth, ethics, and morals.
If it was a State actor doing the spam, instead of degenerate gamblers and scammers, would this attack be more obvious and taken more serious?
Disappointing that businesses like Bitcoin Magazine are encouraging and promoting spam too. Shake my head every time I hear them try to justify it.
Someone paying $389 to move $1.94.
547,000 sats to move 2730 sats.
Why?
Because this has nothing to do with Bitcoin and doesn't make any sense from the network's perspective.
People who take comfort that behaviour will remain predictable thanks to economically rational decision making need to know it goes both ways when you start taking in external factors.
You have to do it with miners too.
If a miner can make more money in ways that have nothing to do with bitcoin then you can no longer rely on simple assumptions like "miners will do X because if they don't then they will make less than a miner who does"
The simple example I've used many times is compliance.
If you have a choice between expensive legal battles and exclusion informed by government blacklists (i.e censorship) then it's economically rational to do what's economically irrational.
"You left $500 in TX fees on the table! Why?"
"Because our lawyers advised us that this would save us several million dollars."
We have a case-study of this exact scenario with Wasabi Wallet.
So if this is true, what does it have to do with spam? From a miner's perspective, spam is simply a free lunch.
What's the downside?
The issue is we've been standing on shaky ground when it comes to the assumptions we've made about the choices of miners. Myself included.
It turns out there are instances when economic rationality works *against* the interests of the wider network. It's obvious, but apparently we're all surprised that this it the case, or straight up in denial about it.
Spam is that exact scenario. Blocks are far larger than was ever supposed to be possible with the introduction of witness-discounted data. We see block after block at what was meant to be a theoretical maximum of just under 4MB.
There is no room for interpretation. This is simply harmful and the result of a nasty attack.
The entire basis on which the blocksize wars were fought was that encumbering nodes with way more data would lead to centralization. (Along with a host of other issues, like centralization of mining & pools).
The simple solution is that it needs to stop. Blocks cannot be stuffed with arbitrary data placed there by ambivalent miners.
The way this stops is as a natural extension of a bitcoin community that recognizes attacks and responds accordingly.
It means using node software that isn't designed to hurt its users which is already happening with migration away from Core to Knots. The most popular plug-n-play nodes have all begun offering this.
They did not this time last year.
It means miners choosing pools that at least give them the option of not participating in the attack -> currently well under 1% of the hashrate, 6 months ago not even an option. Hard for me to talk about because obviously I'm employed by the pool in question.
It means people who never mined doing it for the first time.
And mostly it means maintaining an understanding of what makes bitcoin bitcoin. That in itself has always been enough to evict crypto scammers to something other than Bitcoin. Those who wanted to turn it into "paypal 2.0" with the same disregard and contempt for nodes that the spam apologists display now forked themselves off to bcash and craigcoin.
The one thing that will *not* solve this problem is high transaction fees. This is an argument made by those who at least understand an attack when they see it, but are in denial about what surviving it actually involves.
Throughout the last few months the conversation has rapidly progressed and the tide has been turning.
I am under no illusions that this is an easy fix, but that is because of the nature of politics and how much larger the ecosystem is now.
But it's also just history repeating itself.
Bitcoin keeps having to fight the same battles again and again. Always in service of importance of being able to run *and use* a node, affordably and trivially, by complete noobs.
To maintain decentralization.
To resist the corrupting of what we have.
Bitcoin is money. Other features cannot come at the expense of that.
OP RETURN wars, bcash, segwit2x, shitcoins, coloredcoins, hostile BIPs, malicious devs....
We've done it a million times before. Every single time the "laser-eyed toxic maxis" win.
View quoted note →
Well done for speaking out about this. After listening to you on @Peter McCormack & @preston podcast I think you are 100% right, we must fight this SPAM. I'm pointing my miners to Ocean today
If nfts are an attack, so too bitcoin adoption, since increased use for regular monetary transactions will result in the same issue.
Every cycle people cry about transaction fees. Decentralization and central planning do not go together. Pick one or the other.
Welcome!
What's he saying lately? All I know is he released a book. He's got a pretty bad history of dishonesty and plays politics when losing arguments on a technical basis.
Max already explained.
Knots is great - mining is great too, just use ocean.
Lastly take part in the conversation. Don't let liars misrepresent stuff and get away with it.
Hope to see you at the BBB Nostr Stage next Friday. 🤙🏻
Mining not an option yet. Maybe one day. But I’ll run knots then.
Thanks for shedding light on this issue. I was in the “don’t care, will fade” camp. But your arguments on WBD convinced me of the importance of the issue and that it is actually spam.
We NEED stratum V2. This seems to be the longest awaited feature of ALL time.
READ THIS, Bitcoiner
Someone paying $389 to move $1.94.
547,000 sats to move 2730 sats.
Why?
Because this has nothing to do with Bitcoin and doesn't make any sense from the network's perspective.
People who take comfort that behaviour will remain predictable thanks to economically rational decision making need to know it goes both ways when you start taking in external factors.
You have to do it with miners too.
If a miner can make more money in ways that have nothing to do with bitcoin then you can no longer rely on simple assumptions like "miners will do X because if they don't then they will make less than a miner who does"
The simple example I've used many times is compliance.
If you have a choice between expensive legal battles and exclusion informed by government blacklists (i.e censorship) then it's economically rational to do what's economically irrational.
"You left $500 in TX fees on the table! Why?"
"Because our lawyers advised us that this would save us several million dollars."
We have a case-study of this exact scenario with Wasabi Wallet.
So if this is true, what does it have to do with spam? From a miner's perspective, spam is simply a free lunch.
What's the downside?
The issue is we've been standing on shaky ground when it comes to the assumptions we've made about the choices of miners. Myself included.
It turns out there are instances when economic rationality works *against* the interests of the wider network. It's obvious, but apparently we're all surprised that this it the case, or straight up in denial about it.
Spam is that exact scenario. Blocks are far larger than was ever supposed to be possible with the introduction of witness-discounted data. We see block after block at what was meant to be a theoretical maximum of just under 4MB.
There is no room for interpretation. This is simply harmful and the result of a nasty attack.
The entire basis on which the blocksize wars were fought was that encumbering nodes with way more data would lead to centralization. (Along with a host of other issues, like centralization of mining & pools).
The simple solution is that it needs to stop. Blocks cannot be stuffed with arbitrary data placed there by ambivalent miners.
The way this stops is as a natural extension of a bitcoin community that recognizes attacks and responds accordingly.
It means using node software that isn't designed to hurt its users which is already happening with migration away from Core to Knots. The most popular plug-n-play nodes have all begun offering this.
They did not this time last year.
It means miners choosing pools that at least give them the option of not participating in the attack -> currently well under 1% of the hashrate, 6 months ago not even an option. Hard for me to talk about because obviously I'm employed by the pool in question.
It means people who never mined doing it for the first time.
And mostly it means maintaining an understanding of what makes bitcoin bitcoin. That in itself has always been enough to evict crypto scammers to something other than Bitcoin. Those who wanted to turn it into "paypal 2.0" with the same disregard and contempt for nodes that the spam apologists display now forked themselves off to bcash and craigcoin.
The one thing that will *not* solve this problem is high transaction fees. This is an argument made by those who at least understand an attack when they see it, but are in denial about what surviving it actually involves.
Throughout the last few months the conversation has rapidly progressed and the tide has been turning.
I am under no illusions that this is an easy fix, but that is because of the nature of politics and how much larger the ecosystem is now.
But it's also just history repeating itself.
Bitcoin keeps having to fight the same battles again and again. Always in service of importance of being able to run *and use* a node, affordably and trivially, by complete noobs.
To maintain decentralization.
To resist the corrupting of what we have.
Bitcoin is money. Other features cannot come at the expense of that.
OP RETURN wars, bcash, segwit2x, shitcoins, coloredcoins, hostile BIPs, malicious devs....
We've done it a million times before. Every single time the "laser-eyed toxic maxis" win.
View quoted note →

Someone paying $389 to move $1.94.
547,000 sats to move 2730 sats.
Why?
Because this has nothing to do with Bitcoin and doesn't make any sense from the network's perspective.
People who take comfort that behaviour will remain predictable thanks to economically rational decision making need to know it goes both ways when you start taking in external factors.
You have to do it with miners too.
If a miner can make more money in ways that have nothing to do with bitcoin then you can no longer rely on simple assumptions like "miners will do X because if they don't then they will make less than a miner who does"
The simple example I've used many times is compliance.
If you have a choice between expensive legal battles and exclusion informed by government blacklists (i.e censorship) then it's economically rational to do what's economically irrational.
"You left $500 in TX fees on the table! Why?"
"Because our lawyers advised us that this would save us several million dollars."
We have a case-study of this exact scenario with Wasabi Wallet.
So if this is true, what does it have to do with spam? From a miner's perspective, spam is simply a free lunch.
What's the downside?
The issue is we've been standing on shaky ground when it comes to the assumptions we've made about the choices of miners. Myself included.
It turns out there are instances when economic rationality works *against* the interests of the wider network. It's obvious, but apparently we're all surprised that this it the case, or straight up in denial about it.
Spam is that exact scenario. Blocks are far larger than was ever supposed to be possible with the introduction of witness-discounted data. We see block after block at what was meant to be a theoretical maximum of just under 4MB.
There is no room for interpretation. This is simply harmful and the result of a nasty attack.
The entire basis on which the blocksize wars were fought was that encumbering nodes with way more data would lead to centralization. (Along with a host of other issues, like centralization of mining & pools).
The simple solution is that it needs to stop. Blocks cannot be stuffed with arbitrary data placed there by ambivalent miners.
The way this stops is as a natural extension of a bitcoin community that recognizes attacks and responds accordingly.
It means using node software that isn't designed to hurt its users which is already happening with migration away from Core to Knots. The most popular plug-n-play nodes have all begun offering this.
They did not this time last year.
It means miners choosing pools that at least give them the option of not participating in the attack -> currently well under 1% of the hashrate, 6 months ago not even an option. Hard for me to talk about because obviously I'm employed by the pool in question.
It means people who never mined doing it for the first time.
And mostly it means maintaining an understanding of what makes bitcoin bitcoin. That in itself has always been enough to evict crypto scammers to something other than Bitcoin. Those who wanted to turn it into "paypal 2.0" with the same disregard and contempt for nodes that the spam apologists display now forked themselves off to bcash and craigcoin.
The one thing that will *not* solve this problem is high transaction fees. This is an argument made by those who at least understand an attack when they see it, but are in denial about what surviving it actually involves.
Throughout the last few months the conversation has rapidly progressed and the tide has been turning.
I am under no illusions that this is an easy fix, but that is because of the nature of politics and how much larger the ecosystem is now.
But it's also just history repeating itself.
Bitcoin keeps having to fight the same battles again and again. Always in service of importance of being able to run *and use* a node, affordably and trivially, by complete noobs.
To maintain decentralization.
To resist the corrupting of what we have.
Bitcoin is money. Other features cannot come at the expense of that.
OP RETURN wars, bcash, segwit2x, shitcoins, coloredcoins, hostile BIPs, malicious devs....
We've done it a million times before. Every single time the "laser-eyed toxic maxis" win.
View quoted note →
The concerns over miner behaviour only last as long as miners are becoming public companies, since they're obliged to maximise profits.
The only statement I'll disagree with you with in that text was the bit about coloured coins - we used them to great effect back in 2014/15, distributing mining rewards and allowing a group of us to buy/sell hashing power. That was definitely not an attack.
TxId, or it didn’t happen.