Just roll over 99 plebs

Minor nit though: those rolls are being turned into a seed by a process you can’t verify. You can audit the code, yes, but fundamentally it’s un-verifiable because you can’t interrogate the specific circuit and firmware performing the roll-to-seed procedure.

Think it was you I read suggesting inputting to two different devices to see if output same phrase, as an extra check. Also, can put decent bait on it for a while and watch, if still there later on can feel confident to add more

Yes. Whatever you produce yourself, put in multiple devices to ensure none are lying to you. In the dice-rolling example, you could get two manufacturers, enter the same rolls and ensure they produce the same seed phrases. The problem is that there aren’t two vendors (just ColdCard, AFAIK) so to verify, you basically have to spin up an offline computer and run the Python source code. Using an offline computer to reproduce your seed phrase generation process kinda negates the advantage of having eternally quarantined, air gapped hardware in the first place. Plus, it’s not Coinkite’s preferred method anyway. They recommend using a mix of your own words and their in-device entropy, which is entirely unverifiable. By contrast, many vendors can perform the last word generation, XPUB generation, and address generation. So starting with seed words makes more sense to me.

Ooh didn’t know it was just coinkite, assumed others too. Could roll once as a test wallet to get confirm with computer calc, if agreement, roll a new seed and trust it, I guess. I didn’t know about the vendors helping with last word, that’s kinda huge news to me. You could “roll” random 1-2048 23 times, and then roll 1-8 for final word. Do I have that right?

> and trust it, I guess. Exactly. Best you can do is audit, dry-run with offline computer, then trust. > You could “roll” random 1-2048 23 times, and then roll 1-8 for final word. Do I have that right? Correct. ColdCard, Keystone (formerly Cobo Vault), SeedSigner and Spetre DIY will show you the list of conforming last words, from which you can pick. There may be other devices, I don’t know.

Thanks for info. Now to hopefully retrieve this note down the line when I wanna find it 😅

what? are you actually suggesting to roll dices? D6 has ~2.6 bits per roll.

“Roll” here is a synonym for “generate” or “produce”. Personally, I’m not a fan of the dice rolling method specifically. I do recommend that people randomly generate their own seed phrases though.

uff, dice rolling is a terrible idea.

Seedsigner lets you enter dice rolls

Does it use the same algorithm as ColdCard? IIRC, the CC algo was to concatenate the rolls as a string and run it through SHA256.

not sure ... ``` def generate_mnemonic_from_dice(roll_data: str, wordlist_language_code: str = SettingsConstants.WORDLIST_LANGUAGE__ENGLISH) -> list[str]: """ Takes a string of 50 or 99 dice rolls and returns a 12- or 24-word mnemonic. Uses the iancoleman.io/bip39 and bitcoiner.guide/seed "Base 10" or "Hex" mode approach: * dice rolls are treated as string data. * hashed via SHA256. Important note: This method is NOT compatible with iancoleman's "Dice" mode. """ entropy_bytes = hashlib.sha256(roll_data.encode()).digest() if len(roll_data) == DICE__NUM_ROLLS__12WORD: # 12-word mnemonic; only use 128bits / 16 bytes entropy_bytes = entropy_bytes[:16] # Return as a list return bip39.mnemonic_from_bytes(entropy_bytes, wordlist=Seed.get_wordlist(wordlist_language_code)).split() ```

GitHub

seedsigner/src/seedsigner/helpers/mnemonic_generation.py at 825a25a5835bfac0fab3d84c07b3c46676348489 · SeedSigner/seedsigner

Use an air-gapped Raspberry Pi Zero to sign for Bitcoin transactions! (and do other cool stuff) - SeedSigner/seedsigner

Looks like it, yeah. Same in spirit anyway, taking the hash of a string. Would be worthwhile feeding a ColdCard and a SeedSigner the same stream of rolls and see what seed phrases they produce.

@SeedSigner @SeedSigner ("the man") have tests like these been done before, please?

Using casino-grade dice, I can confirm that the seed phrases generated by SeedSigner (v0.8.0) and ColdCardQ (1.3.0Q) match! Rolling 3 dice at a time, gives me these values: ```csv roll,die_1,die_2,die_3 01,3,4,5 02,4,4,3 03,6,3,3 04,5,3,6 05,2,6,1 06,2,6,2 07,2,1,2 08,3,4,1 09,3,5,2 10,6,1,6 11,2,3,5 12,1,1,5 13,2,3,1 14,3,1,6 15,2,1,6 16,3,5,2 17,2,5,1 18,4,4,1 19,2,6,6 20,6,4,6 21,5,4,4 22,6,6,4 23,4,5,1 24,6,2,1 25,2,1,2 26,2,1,4 27,4,4,5 28,1,2,1 29,1,2,3 30,1,2,6 31,1,6,4 32,2,5,1 33,2,3,3 ``` Which generate the following seed phrase: ```csv index,word 01,TALEnt 02,ROUGH 03,SEA 04,WOLF 05,ORANge 06,CORN 07,MOTOr 08,RIOT 09,WRONg 10,OFFIce 11,THEY 12,RIOT 13,ZEBRa 14,VIRTual 15,PEOPle 16,CAPItal 17,DEPUty 18,PHONe 19,SCENe 20,CASTle 21,COOK 22,ISSUe 23,CRICKet 24,TERM ``` with a fingerprint of `#421e05ba`. View quoted note →