Nostr's been hovering at ~15k daily active "verified" users since I can remember. The once-off gay porn spam is not the cause... it's the ongoing retention issue.

Yes, those who've only been dicking around left.

The irony is palpable.

Yup, retention is a huge issue for sure. 15k daily user on this big ass planet is super low.

I buy this. There's some deeper issue.

Something about a bunch of dicks in your feed that didn’t sit well with a certain demographic 🤷

You can't have your cake and eat it too; most people would rather enjoy more comfortable pillows in their prison cell than experience true freedom.

🤣

It's practically nothing. That doesn't mean entirely pointless though. But I am interested in growing the protocol for my own sake. It's just more useful and interesting for me with greater diversity.

Kind of misses the point of the protocol, even if I agree with the intent. I don't like seeing garbage here either. We do need better filters, but users will always have to choose those by design. It would make the protocol pointless (for me) if anyone could just moderate the entire protocol for everyone. Options with better defaults would be great.

It's basically a glorified forum. The echo chamber refuses to acknowledge statistical data. I've had many unfollow me for just posting the data. But if you don't know where you're at—where you're starting from—then it makes it a hell of a lot harder to get where you're going. I love Nostr and have been here since Snowden joined years ago. I want to see it succeed. But the fact is... Nostr is still not ready for businesses, and it's still not getting the reach that many use social media for. Most here are not saying anything that would get them banned from larger platforms. So at this point, I still have to ask: If a dissident speaks truth to power on a protocol and no one is around to hear it, does it really make a sound? #GrowNostr

Dropping bars!!!

Client level banning killing nostr. Doesn't matter what truths you have to speak when no one shall ever see it. Beats the goal of a freedom of speech protocol.

sum things take time to add uP*/*i hear *U* & t Y*

We just need a user friendly client that isn't a twitter clone.

I never even seen the gay porn on here. I feel like I'm more likely to see gay porn on Instagram or Twitter.

hey TURI$MO, that jazz collection i mentioned to you awhile back was swooped up by family members & shipped EAST/sry, but i have no access anymore/

I've been off it for a while but decided to return with vigor. I'm interested in the specific problems you believe contribute to the retention issue. I think more are realizing there must be problems and will be interested to support solutions. I'm still in the phase of trying to use it properly before I go digging into issues.

🤙🏾 all good no sweat

When was that?

What keeps my interest/participation dampened is I personally don't like using a kyc wallet feature. There is no non kyc option. This is odd on a decentralized platform. With online surveillance blossoming more every year... no thanks.

Agreed. Every app on Nostr is just a suckier knockoff of the original. The "killer app" that brings everyone to Nostr hasn't been made yet.

I've seen the homo spam. Thankfully, there's something I can use to potentially stop it.

Welcome back! You're right that more people are starting to realize there are real challenges here. As for the specific retention issues... Onboarding. The fact that self-hosting requires some technical know-how and equipment, and the alternative is to pay to play. It's easy to pay more than a verified check cost on X when you factor in media hosting and spam-resistant relays. Network effects. People are already established elsewhere and their friends aren't on Nostr. You're posting into a void initially. Bitcoin echo chamber. Most people talk about Bitcoin ad nauseam. It really is the main topic of the entire protocol. If you're not interested in Bitcoin maximalism, there's still very little content diversity to keep you engaged. Reach. People want to be heard. The daily active users hover around 10,000-15,000 "trusted" pub keys. Compare that to any mainstream platform and you're talking about a fraction of a percent of potential audience. If you're trying to build a brand, promote a business, or just want your voice to matter in broader conversations, Nostr simply doesn't have the numbers. But here's the thing that really gets me—according to nostr.band data, retention of trusted users trends to 0 within 30 days for recent cohorts. Think about that. We're not just failing to onboard people properly; we're losing the ones who actually make it through the initial hurdles. The message-to-market mismatch is glaring. The marketing focuses on censorship resistance, but most users aren't posting anything that would get them banned elsewhere. The value proposition doesn't match the user experience for the average person. And then there's the technical complexity that nobody wants to talk about. Even basic features like follow lists don't scale properly, and the relay model creates consistency issues that confuse new users. I could go on, but these are the main structural hurdles I see that need addressing before Nostr can move beyond its current niche.

I'n not going to let me be influenced by it. The videos they use are extreme though.

Then don’t use a KYC wallet? Alby hub is self hosted and you can use Alby go.. or coinos if you’re lazy

There are actually apps tackling these challenges, now, but almost everyone uses Primal, so their efforts don't improve any user's actual experience. And using large aggregators, with no spam filter, to build the threads, is a strategic mistake. See it on Jumble. You get the feed looking good, and then someone clicks on an entry and it's bots, crypto spam, and penis all the way down. The fear of not-displaying something on here is ridiculously high. Let's just have lots of different clients, instead, or start users off with a more limited feed and let them dial up the dickortunity. It's not only relays, that need some diversity.

The retention rates have gone down, since they launched. Right?

Yep, I agree with all that. Any time I see reference to Nostr elsewhere people's first experience is; a firehose of bitcoin/scammy/christian/libertarian stuff that's really in need of moderation... That's pretty much what people see, like it or not. People that have tried a bit harder say they've been fleeced transferring crypto to sats with even the popular wallets compounding the scammy perception. It's going to be a difficult base to grow from imho.

still too many users 😅

I think technical complexity is the biggest issue. That and just how difficult it is to actually find people when you first join. Took me weeks to find enough people to follow and even then, 1/3 of the day, from about now until 9pm my time, it's just empty. Media hosting is one thing but the majority of people on social media are consumers rather than producers so I think it's more just the lack of content to view rather than people wanting to post more than they can

I’m all in Bitcoin and Nostr

Primal is a blessing and a curse. It's horrible for onboarding. It suggests the same small group of people to everyone that signs up. Including bots, nobody that's new to nostr wants to follow serious humour or whatever other bots primal suggests. And it's a twitter clone, which means only twitter users will actually like it. But it's still the most user friendly client

And yet, we are the content creators and app developers. We are why people use Nostr.

That's an excellent list. If you have those broken out somewhere I'd love to contribute. Could be an issue tracker if nothing else. I agree that each one is a valid problem and would enjoy helping to track and drive solutions on all fronts.

To be honest NOSTR is where bad people go to pretend to be good people. You’ve got people defending drug trafficking and theft because technically there is a use case for Silk Road and coin mixing outside of that.

thats what they said about bitcoin too.

Bitcoin is not Nostr—far from it. How are you making this correlation, specifically?

Criticizing Nostr for its niche adoption or limited user retention today is shortsighted — it’s the same mistake people made when declaring Bitcoin “dead” over a hundred times in its early years. Now, Bitcoin is recognized globally as a resilient, censorship-resistant store of value with institutional support and a \$1T+ market cap. History shows that paradigm-shifting technologies often begin in the margins, misunderstood and underestimated. Nostr is in a similar place. It is not trying to be a copy of Twitter or a trendy app with quick growth hacks. It's an open protocol — a foundational piece of infrastructure — built to resist censorship, empower individuals with private keys, and enable interoperable, decentralized social communication. That mission isn't sexy for the average user right now, but it's vital in a world where speech is increasingly moderated by opaque corporate policies and geopolitical interests. Yes, the user experience is still being refined. Yes, it feels like a home mostly for Bitcoiners and cypherpunks at the moment. But dismissing it for those reasons is like mocking the early internet because it was slow and required technical know-how. The real value of Nostr lies in what it enables, not where it currently stands. Decentralized networks take longer to mature. They don't have the luxury of venture-fueled growth or centralized coordination. But what they build — when done right — is lasting. It’s not about hype or virality; it’s about sovereignty, resilience, and freedom. People often want instant gratification — viral apps, mooning coins, dopamine hits. But the most important innovations demand patience. Just like Bitcoin did. And if Nostr stays the course, improves user experience, and keeps aligning with the ethos of censorship resistance and user empowerment, it will become more than just a niche — it will be necessary. So don’t judge Nostr by its current size. Judge it by its principles, its trajectory, and its long-term potential to shift how we communicate in the digital age — just like Bitcoin changed how we think about money.

Bitcoin succeeded because it solved an immediate problem people have. Nostr is building the right solution for real censorship-resistance, but we're currently creating a free speech infrastructure with retention issues—dissidents need amplification, not just protection.

"Bitcoin succeeded because it solved an immediate problem.” Yeah — and most people didn’t even see that problem at the time. It was nerd money, tulip mania, internet magic beans... until it wasn’t. Now apply that to Nostr. Censorship IS a real problem. People just don’t feel it yet or think it won’t happen to them. But when it does, it’s already too late. That’s why Nostr matters. Yes, it’s early. Yes, it’s rough. So was Bitcoin in 2010. And if you don’t get why censorship-resistant communication is worth building now, before it’s “needed”… "If you don't get it, I don't have time to explain it to you.” We’re not late. We’re early. Again.

Hardly anyone gets personally censored. That's why it's not a draw for the social feed use case. Different with the OtherStuff. Git repos, books, medical journals, media, store-fronts, etc. is the part where censorship-resistence is valuable. But, like I said, you need the social feed hopping, to keep the relays going, as they provide the mass. Social feed and DMs. You can advertise your other stuff off-Nostr, but you can't store the data off-Nostr.

Not enough people know about Nostr yet, and it’s a steep learning curve for the average person. The average X/Facebook user doesn’t understand PKI, for example. The wallets are also a bit naff, I still can’t get mine to work.

lol, "Hardly anyone gets censored.” You might think that, until it happens to you, or someone close to you. I have friends who’ve been shadowbanned, deplatformed, and financially censored, not just on X or Facebook, but on dating apps, Airbnb, and banking platforms. This isn’t hypothetical. It’s not rare. It’s just quiet. That’s how censorship works now, not dramatic bans, but silent removals and algorithmic suppression. And sure, social feeds feel trivial — until they’re the only way you have to reach people. They’re the gateway layer. Without them, the "OtherStuff” doesn’t reach the world. You can't build a censorship-resistant ecosystem while relying on censored infrastructure for discovery and distribution. Relays stay alive because people talk. DMs, shitposts, serious threads, they’re all part of the same defense: freedom to publish, to speak, to exist online without a gatekeeper. If you still think “it’s not a problem,” that’s fine. But as Satoshi said: "If you don’t get it, I don’t have time to explain it to you.”

Out of interest, just to further the conversation, how do you think a better app could/should look and work.

As a newer user I only partially agree. The community isn't why I came here. I know nobody on here so it wasnt a "I really want to follow X but they only post on Nostr". Its the idea of a platform immune to all the censorship and digital ID stuff that makes me want to use it. But at the same time it had nobody on it there would be no point in using it. What does help bigtime is that this community while quite one sided in their interests with the majority being bitcoiners are friendly and seem tollerant people. While Mastodon was the most toxic place I have ever been to. I got slandered as a nazi and banned for suggesting I should be able to follow a content creator on an instance that the creators of Mastodon didn't like. Not only did I get defamed by the tusky developer who crippled the app not to work with that instance I got banned within 5 minutes for merely suggesting it on a very large mastodon instance. Here its not like that. They can't dog pile me to get rid of me because there is no admin that can boot me off. As a result those power tripping psycho's don't come here as they have no power here. And what you then see is that the people who do come here are the ones who value civil discussion even if they don't agree. The whole zap thing encourages people to be civil, so does the anti censorship. Personally I havent seen spam. At least not worse than Mastodon used to be. I just know that on any platform chronological global timelines are a bad idea. So I don't take the posts that are there to be an issue with the platform. Instead I follow people I come across in the comments or look at who the people I follow are following.

it's the positive messaging. makes you ditch your deVICES and go do stuff...

if bitcoin whales were nostr interactions, yeah, i guess bitcoin is dead too!

MAYBE YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN CENSORED, BUT DONT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE BITCOINERS AND MANY OTHERS GOT CENSORED LEFT & RIGHT ON TWITTER DURING COVID, SO MUCH SO THAT PEOPLE HAD NUMBERS AT THE END OF THEIR NEW PROFILES TO SHOW THEIR # OF BANS ...

I'm newer and didn't use Primal so not all users will automatically use that. I settled on Amethyst for now because I want something actually decentral. I also want something that supports proper anonymous DM's and those reddit style interest groups. Amethyst has it all, and I find its lazy loading quite charming. Primal I disliked because I could immediately tell its not decentral but its going trough their server which gives them control. That defeats the purpose of a decentral ecosystem. If I want that kinda thing i'd use soapbox / ditto since those instances anyone can host. Suggestions for better decentralized clients are very much welcome though.

No, you can self host

You can self-host Alby Hub on your own device / VPS without any subscription.

Agree with the “message-to-market mismatch”, Elon Musk’s X has changed the market removing the urgency to adopt Nostr, and other platforms have eased off the censorship such as LinkedIn and Facebook. That said, censorship may increase and irrespective, Nostr’s access apps are improving making it easier to use.

Things take time. It took Mastodon years to get where it is now. It's still niche but solidly established. Maybe over time Mastodon users will move over to nostr when censorship on Mastodon starts hurting badly.

IMO the biggest reason is: Starting out on any social media platform, _without_ the algorithmmic feed that all big platforms have, is hard. Curating your own mix of accounts that are interesting but don't combine into a no-engage-worthy feeling fire hose of posts .. is hard work. Many people prefer opening their app and scrolling through the latest hot shit, without having to worry how to manually get a feed made up of things that are relevant to them.

Censorship resistance was the only reason I came to Nostr originally. That cancel this t-shirt company guy from tiktok made a video about it. He wasn't even here for 2 weeks before he stopped posting though.

Scams and thefts of bitcoin use coin mixers to obfuscate their funds. True or false.

Oh yeah my bad you’re right. Coin mixing is legitimate and is not used primarily by criminals. Phew!

Just enter fake info …

I recieve to my lightning address, no KYC

bitcoin succeeded? I didn't get that news

You can use

Telegram

BitTip

Lightning Tip Bot ran by a Noderunner ⚡️

for a no-KYC custodial lightning wallet instead of those KYCed apps.

Quote: "If a dissident speaks truth to power on a protocol and no one is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?" Ironically I'm literally reaching out to you @Ava over and over to cover our life's work of a unique privacy project, which helps nostr and you can make crypto from, to dead silence of you ignoring me.

I only saw it once thankfully. Shit happens.

Send me your proposition.

I'm still trying to figure out how to get actual content on here. so far it's either small talk or mindless bitcoin circle jerk stuff. I keep following more and more people to try and diversify my portfolio but so far to no avail. I think a trending feature would be helpful.

Spme corrections here. Bitcoin hasn't succeeded, it is captured & the price is highly manipulated. And it fails when it comes to privacy. Nostr is only cencorship resistance when yiu run your own relay, otherwise not as any relay can delete your content anytime.

Let's be very clear: Bitcoin succeeded as in becoming the first real globally accepted cryptocurrency. And yes, it is also being co-opted by the powers that be and failing in its original cypherpunk mission as a currency as laid out in the white paper as far as I'm concerned. This includes its ongoing challenges with privacy and functioning as a truly peer-to-peer electronic cash system, as originally envisioned. So, "success" is a relative term here. I have written much on the subject that you have read, liked, and agreed with over the years about Monero and Bitcoin, privacy vs open ledger, store of value vs digital currency etc. It was not my intention to respond to the OP in great detail on things I have posted about countless times before on this account. And because I only like to repeat myself when I'm being redundant... ;) And since you mentioned this twice in a post and this comment... I will say again... I did not say, "Nostr is real censorship resistant." My exact words were, "Nostr is building the right solution for real censorship-resistance." By "right," I mean permissionless and decentralized. By "building," I mean it's a work in progress.

@Ava , The approach most privacy browsers (such as Tor) have is to block certain kinds of JavaScript. But this has a huge negative of not only outright breaking websites, which use those flavors of JS, but also red flagging to the website you're trying to hide from them. Other browsers other than Tor are completely vulnerable to fingerprinting, such as Brave, LibreWolf, Firefox, and Chromium-forks. Instead of any of that, Our new Linux app HydraVeil, is a VPN, browser-distro, and acts similar to a hypervisor to recreate a new graphical environment, but is faster than a full virtual machine. When combined with new IP addresses, a built-in browser distribution, fonts packages, isolated filesystem, and canvas modification, this revolutionary new app allows the user to effortless and rapidly use isolated browser fingerprint profiles in a single click, that are both completely undetectable and private from all other activity. Even better, we are in the process of decentralizing the Wireguard VPN nodes, tied to Nostr keys via chain of trust encryption. So instead of Tor, where the nodes are a commodity that the end user has no way to evaluate if they are the government or not. With our system, the end-user can literally pick to route traffic through your node, verified by your Npub. Not only does this help users be private in situations where they can not use Tor browser or exit Tor IPs, Not only does this help spread Nostr's use, But on top of all of that, you're getting a cut of crypto revenue, with no upfront risk. We're paying you upfront for the server cost. And you're not asking users to trust us, you're asking them to trust you as a VPN hop. The setup is as easy as pulling a docker container.

@Ava Did you get / see the proposition in this thread?

I did. I will look into it, and let you know if it's something I would be interested in. Does it do anything to mitigate against keystroke and mouse deanonymization (behavioral biometrics), similar to using Whonix + kloak?

Whonix

Keystroke and Mouse Deanonymization

Explains how your typing and mouse movement patterns can be used to track or identify you online, even when using privacy tools like Tor - and how ...

GitHub

GitHub - Whonix/kloak: anti keystroke deanonymization tool

anti keystroke deanonymization tool. Contribute to Whonix/kloak development by creating an account on GitHub.

It's a new keyboard/mouse & display, so this solves some of the isolation issues with Whonix (see below). And that would stop that kind of fingerprinting from the host to the profile. But not profile to profile, as they would respond the same, even to their own x11. However, if someone is really that concerned, they can run hydraveil in whonix.

Solve Whonix's Flaws | Simplified Privacy

The kinds of websites that Kloak would work on, such as Google Docs is a great example, would block and break Tor browser outright. And whonix is nothing special outside tor browser.