Keychat's avatar
Keychat 4 months ago
The counterparty risk for Custodial wallet and Cashu users is that the server operator might run away with the funds. Liquid users face the risk that multiple federation members might collude to steal the funds. Spark users face the risk that the service providers might collude with the previous sender to double-spend the received funds. The counterparty risk for Ark is that if the user stays offline for too long and their VTXO expires, the service provider may be able to take control of it. The counterparty risk for Lightning channel users is that if the channel counterparty broadcasts an old state (a settlement transaction favorable to them) on-chain, and the user fails to come online and publish the latest state within the dispute period to contest it.
Keychat's avatar Keychat
The security of off-chain BTC is not uniform—counterparty risk increases in the following order: Lightning-Channel BTC → Ark BTC → Spark BTC → Liquid BTC → Cashu BTC → Custodial BTC. The Lightning Network is a channel layer plus a routing layer. If you run your own channel, the routing layer lets you settle payments directly. For the other five off-chain wallets, the operator shares its own Lightning channels with users, allowing them to send and receive Lightning payments. Liquid example • Paying — your wallet sends the same amount of L-BTC, and the operator pays the invoice through its channels. • Receiving — the operator first receives BTC over Lightning, then sends you the equivalent L-BTC. Liquid, Spark, and Ark can make users’ sending and receiving of Lightning payments atomic. Lightning is the transport network—other off-chain solutions plug in as special nodes. image
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Replies (32)

shaun's avatar
shaun 4 months ago
I would put liquid lower down the risk curve, how many federation members are needed to collude?
Keychat's avatar
Keychat 4 months ago
Spark and Ark providers can also, like Liquid, be composed of multiple members.
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Keychat 4 months ago
I’m not yet very familiar with RGB, so I haven’t compared it.
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Stvu 4 months ago
Well… well shit
Some around these parts will shun you for speaking simple truth.
Keychat's avatar Keychat
The counterparty risk for Custodial wallet and Cashu users is that the server operator might run away with the funds. Liquid users face the risk that multiple federation members might collude to steal the funds. Spark users face the risk that the service providers might collude with the previous sender to double-spend the received funds. The counterparty risk for Ark is that if the user stays offline for too long and their VTXO expires, the service provider may be able to take control of it. The counterparty risk for Lightning channel users is that if the channel counterparty broadcasts an old state (a settlement transaction favorable to them) on-chain, and the user fails to come online and publish the latest state within the dispute period to contest it. View quoted note →
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Hopefully people understand this already before they’re using it. These aren’t technologies for saving/storage. They sacrifice security of funds for speed, convenience or privacy. Same as holding cash on you in a wallet - can be lost or stolen
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In the world of crypto, counterparty risks are everywhere; whether it's custodial wallets or Lightning channels, users must stay vigilant or risk losing their funds to collusion or negligence.
How much time does one before VTXO expires? This does not sound that bad if one can safely pass VTXO renewal to some realiable online service.
Keychat's avatar
Keychat 4 months ago
The validity period of a VTXO should be around four weeks. We are very interested in Ark and have been following the progress of https://second.tech/.
Someone hacking the protocol and printing infinte xmr and not realize :)
Keychat's avatar
Keychat 4 months ago
Custodial wallets, Cashu, Spark, and Ark all use a server–client architecture, and their user experience should be able to reach a high standard.
I don't agree with the cash in wallet metaphor. I have some degree of control over whether my wallet is lost or stolen. I don't have any control over whether coinos has another accident leading to loss of funds. it's a very bad metaphor.
There's not going to be a perfect metaphor. It was intended to show how you increase risk and decrease the amount held in your day-to-day wallet. Same with using lightning and cashu. I didn't really specify which solution I was comparing it to either - my bad. I was think more along the lines of cashu - which is still not an good metaphor as you trust the mint and the person you transact with (until verified/re-minted). My main bad was to not explain how I was comparing it (increasing trust/risk + decreasing amount, NOT equivalent risk and situation)
Listened to @Jeff Booth recently and he spoke of Fedimint achieving a layer of social anonymity by setting up (guardians I believe the term was he used) who didn’t know each other in anyway whatsoever so that that can’t collude, then you’re free to setup your own federations anchored to these guardians thus mitigating the underlying counter party risk (of collusion). I’ve most certainly not done an adequate job in relay the information , but it sounded very interesting
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Mark Harris 3 months ago
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