I don't need your balance. All I need is your cash flow to see if you are worth anything.

Plenty of people have a lightning address that isn't theirs as their zap target.

Thank you Gigi 🙏

It doesn't matter. On nostr, they are all doxxing that lightning address and those transactions (which is what almost everyone does here). Of course, they can have other lightning wallets and those are not affected. Similarly, we are not doxying people's main Bitcoin wallet. It's only a wallet for nostr. Everything else is user education to hopefully not mix funds or keys.

It matters. It matters a lot. Providing and normalizing the use of long-term footguns is not the way. Building stuff that actively harms the privacy of all on-chain users (that's what address reuse does, remember?) is not the way.

Then we should never have created zaps in the first place.

tbh u nailed it. address reuse is suicide. but ln privacy only works if ur on tor. without it ur ip is leaked to peers. phoenix is teh only mobile wallet worth ur time

Anyway, I know that you're gonna ship it anyway but this is too important for me to just shut up about. I hope that a more sane approach will win in the end. Silent Payments, for example. I'll go touch grass now.

Zaps don't promote on-chain address reuse. Are you even trying to understand what I'm saying?

I appreciate the debate. And I hope someone creates a silent payment implementation that can actually work and don't just defer privacy to a trusted monitor provider.

Sure. But they take something very private and turn into something VERY public for the sake of memes. Any attacker can save those events forever in such a way that they don't even need the chain. In fact, it's even better than the chain because now they can sell databases of past zaps that no one else can find because they were deleted. We created the incentive to sell our info and create that marketplace. It's really bonkers if you think about zaps from a privacy perspective. Every decision we ever made made lightning worse than on chain transactions.

Address reuse is the point. It's the tradeoff we're choosing to make it dead simple. Without that it becomes complex and we fall down a hole, just like the thousand other holes we're already down. Bitcoin lacks focus.

I’m with you, @Gigi Bitcoin on-chain has forward and backward privacy issues. It is not just that you have to unlink the past; one silly mistake in the future, and the unlinked becomes linked again.

Just create a new oc wallet receive some oc zaps, every now and then make a swap oc-ln let it shake for a few weeks in your ln node over tor then swap ln-oc back.

?? View quoted note → View quoted note →

Hi I'm one of silent payments implementers, don't hesitate to ping me if you want to have a chat and try to figure it out. Doing more address reuse is *not* acceptable at this point.

@Alex Gleason strikes me as a polyandrist and nudist IRL

it's old ideas from a new crowd, why hate? next up proof of work DMs in bitmessage nostr or if you zap a post you host its content to continue the zeronet trend

On-chain privacy is not very hard. Pirate Chain (ARRR) has universal zk-Snarks, a technology that has been reliable for 14 years. Monero has universal ring signatures, a multi-decade-old idea invented by two of the guys whose initials are in RSA. These things are actually very easy to implement, and have been stably universally implemented on more useful blockchains, in the case of Monero, for 12 years now. Lightning offers no real privacy, nor fungibility. Nobody is actually using Lightning's onion routing, so there's no fucking traffic on the mix network. A mix network with no participants might as well be a straight tube. You aren't making smoothie if you only dump orange into your blender. It is just pulpy orange juice. Your "privacy" with Lightning is a complete illusion. And it's already further impacted Bitcoin fungibility. Got a Binance Japan account? Try to make a deposit with LN. You can't, because Japan's regulators do not like Lightning! You've got no fucking privacy, your mix network is fake and gay just like your retarded protocol, you don't end up with fungible currency at the end. On-chain privacy is the only way you get privacy. There is no privacy unless the privacy is universally implemented. With the ~$130M USD of real value dumped into Lightning, for virtually no fucking users on a protocol that wouldn't have scaled to accommodate any serious number of them anyways, we could have implemented on-chain privacy ten times over. Monero's upcoming FCMP++ upgrade is a thousand times more innovative and hard to implement than both zk-Snarks and ring signatures. I am sick of Lightning shills repeating the same tired lies over and over again. None of what you say is true, except #1, and that's only because Core is lazy and decadent and does not care about making Bitcoin actually useful as money, which would require fungibility (and privacy is a side effect of that). They only care about justifying yet another grift of venture capital on yet another feature that no significant number of people will ever even want to use.

Legend.

lmao

you're talking to a wall.

Let's do it.. send a NIP on which way to do it that actually works. Right now a bunch of people are talking but nobody is doing shit. We need actual proposals/implementations from people that know what they are talking about.