Hey MonerBros, you can't talk about blacklisting UTXOs on exchanges when your entire coin is blacklisted from exchanges.
K? Thx, use another angle.
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It’s ok if you like some taint bro but it’s not for all of us.
Fungibility Matters BTW!
Okay, that's a different argument.
I am talking about the common refrain: "But exchanges can blacklist coins means bitcoin is less useful."
Okay, what if your WHOLE coin is blacklisted from exchanges?
What does that mean?
I don't fuck with exchanges. I spend Bitcoin with real people, get it from real people, and don't give a fuck about OFAC and their opinion on my coins.
Monero is a social contract of fungibility where I know that if an exchange takes XMR, I am going to be able to exchange my XMR freely there. Unlike Bitcoin where an exchange may claim to take Bitcoin, but then arbitrarily decides they won't take my Bitcoin and then freezes my Bitcoin and refuses to give me back my Bitcoin for months/years/ever.
How is that not the case with Monero on a theoretical exchange? Exchanging fiat for Bitcoin or Monero is a social contract only enforceable by the parties and trust assumptions therein.
My whole point here is pointing out "Bitcoin UTXOs can be frozen" is just as true for Monero on an exchange with a similar payment structure -> Fiat in ->Monero out
but until payment is completed, any coin can be rugged.
So, I just find this argument the weakest against Bitcoin especially from Monero advocates.
Monero doesn't have tainted coins. Nobody is demonstrably showing path of Monero funds moving on the blockchain. I don't understand how you don't seem to understand this. If I deposit my Bitcoin on an exchange it is frozen and seized. If I deposit my Monero it is seamlessly sold. The behavior is observable by literally everyone who gets their Bitcoin regularly frozen and then switches to Monero.
When I receive Monero it remains fungible at any exchange that takes Monero. When I receive Bitcoin I have no assurances that is the case. I would have preferred to use Bitcoin forever, but unfortunately Core decided to spend hundreds of millions of dollars and all the time and resources on the absolute disaster that is LN instead of making Bitcoin fungible and useful from the ground up.
The very fact that there were people hysterically throwing a fit over people using Bitcoin the wrong way all this past month shows that Bitcoin is not fungible. There is no using Monero the wrong way. Besides giving out your view key or private key, there's nothing that you can do that compromises your privacy.
Oh, because fiat is the attack vector not the coin you are buying. Fungibility markers only matter to your counterparty. The fiat being the control mechanism is so much more likely that I am kind of shocked this is still a talking point.
The whole Monero coin IS a tainted coin in the eyes of OFAC exchanges, do you see what I am saying? So, if we are talking about the same exchanges, Monero is no different than Bitcoin in this respect. If we are talking about exchanges that are non-compliant to OFAC, then there is no difference either.
This is why I don't understand this talking point. It doesn't make any sense.
> Monero coin IS a tainted coin in the eyes of OFAC exchanges
this is not true. Monero has a fiat USD pair on Kraken. It's not available in the EU because European regulators don't like it, but Kraken is certainly OFAC compliant.
If they take Monero, they certainly are not truly "OFAC Compliant" because of the KYC requirements of OFAC. (how would they know you're not a Russian using Monero if they don't know their customer)
This is the "Certified Organic" of Crypto.
Well, Kraken is KYC as a whole. You can't use it without KYC at all.
KYC just requires you to have the address of the customer on file. Kraken very clearly gathers your documentation when you create an account.
KYC != "we need the complete financial history of every unit of value you deposit with us." That's not how it works. You can deposit cash in a bank and they don't know where that dollar has been (statistically, it is absolutely a party to a drug transaction and even almost certainly has cocaine residue on it!)
you mean a coin has no value if there's state regulatory pressure to delist it?
simp for regulators harder?
i think that itself IS an indicator of value.
Because one monero is the same as every other monero because it is a fungible/homogenous unit of currency with no surveillance/regulatory attack surface. Bitcoin isn't. Each Bitcoin has a totally transparent and traceable immutable history attached to it allowing chainalysis/exchanges/regulators to discriminate on certain coins due to association with blacklisted addresses, hacks, thefts etc. This discrimination is arbitrary and depends on the entity analyzing the coin's history. Because of this when you deposit a BTC coin on exchange there is a risk score associated with it based on past ownership and transaction history, whereas this is impossible with monero. Monero is like accepting a cash payment, where every note is basically indistinguishable from another, where Bitcoin is risky to accept because ten transactions back it could have come from a hack or theft, and even if you were not the perpetrator you could still be blamed and have your coins frozen or seized through guilt by association. With monero there is no history, an old xmr coin has the same history as a newly mined one.
Somehow that's how it works with bitcoin but not cash, interesting. Despite the fact that cash is not actually that fungible (serial numbers, marked bills, digital bank ledgers) people use it fungibly quite often yet, given the same parameters bitcoin seems to fail your fungibility test.
Why is that?
It can't be tracking, ATMs read every serial number and which account withdrew them. The only difference I can see is that the ledger is public versus a private bank's SQL database.
I agree that Monero has great fungibility, I dispute its network effect capabilities but that's an entirely different point.
Banks are required to make reasonable assumptions based on the transaction history they have. When you use Bitcoin, you are giving them extra transaction history. Unless you're using BOLT12 or whatever. And then you are, arguably, doing an overt act of money laundering, which is information in itself.
Yes, and again, Monero is also an overt act of money laundering at a protocol level. I will conceed the fungibility argument. I just can't understand the tainted coins take as a point for Monero. But hopefully we'll just use peer to peer shit and it won't matter anymore.
Monero is not money laundering at all. It is simply fungible. I don't care about privacy at all, and did not come to Monero seeking privacy. I am a public figure and engage in public commerce.
Monero does not mix or pool funds with tainted funds like Tornado Cash or CoinJoins. It is legally not money laundering. Making it difficult or impossible to tell which input and output is real is legal. Swirling your transactions in with the proceeds of crime is not.
it means you don't understand the difference between a tool that works and one that doesn't:
1: they want full surveillance so they can control you.
2: bitcoin has full transparency, so it enables full surveillance.
3: utxos they don't like or approve of, they block.
4: #monero has full opacity, so it enablea full privacy.
5: they can't distinguish what is and is not acceptable, and they can't respect your private property rights, and they stand by the inversion of the assumption of innocence.
6: they ban #monero altogether, because it's effective.
Simp mindset.
Dust my xmr address with tainted coins. A lot. I dare you.
People either accept xmr or they dont. Thats not a downside compared to distinguishable ownership histories per coin.
Okay, well have fun with that. I don't read shit that starts with "it means you don't understand" when I do and you don't know me. ✌️
Hilarious how many people chime in thinking I don't understand Monero, its features and the differences to Bitcoin.
The word of the day is "Trade-offs"
When someone doesn't see that there is a trade-off, do this!
> I uunderstand monero
> I dont know the difference between tainted coins and a network of indistinguishable ones
If you say so bud.
What does tainted mean in this context? Observably used by bad actors? And your conjecture is that Monero is not? Or that because of Monero's fungibility exchanges will just say "Oh well, we can't distinguish which ones are illicit so, I guess we will list Monero now!"
The point of the entire post is IDGAF about exchanges because my coins don't touch them. I spend bitcoin when and where I want, with real people. I have yet to meet a business owner that wants Monero but that is beside the point. Monero isn't listed precisely because of its fungibility. It is impossible to make OFAC compliant (despite claims about Kraken, someone is lying). While I also don't give a fuck about OFAC, it's not a good argument against Bitcoin.
There are good areguments for monero but "Tainted coins" aren't. No one using bitcoin peer to peer has a compliance officer.
Bud.
If said exchange is willing to take Monero it would almost definitely take bitcoin post mix.
> what does tainted mean
> I understand monero
You can pretend that you won't ass get pounded in a supermax for getting dusted by the Iranian straits toll authority because you'll be doing p2p. Meanwhile, I just dont have to worry about that.
that isn't true. Kraken is happy to take XMR and exchange it for USD on their fiat offramps for all Americans. They are absolutely not happy to take CoinJoins, and will quickly close your account for doing so. Because Monero is fungible like cash with similarly limited transaction history, which is compatible with American AML frameworks, but CoinJoins are an overt act of money laundering, which they have to psychotically suppress to keep their licenses.
1. Coinjoins are absolutely not money laundering. Dumb take.
2. Monero is delisted in several jurisdictions for Kraken. You are completely reliant on the whims of a bureaucrat and it is a matter of time before they delist everywhere for the same reasons they're skittish about coinjoins
1. from the perspective of the financial compliance system, CoinJoins are money laundering (an overt act to conceal the source or destination of funds).
2. Yes, Kraken removes Monero from Europe and Japan, as regulators in those locales do not like it. Yet they still maintain it where it is legal, because it is not arguably money laundering.
Bottom line is you will eventually be in the same boat as coinjoined bitcoin. Just because you can argue it's not overt does not protect you. You either need a massive sea change in the way privacy is viewed or you need a circular economy to spend in.
> you will eventually be in the same boat as coinjoined bitcoin
I will not. My Monero is not mixed with criminal proceeds. CoinJoined Bitcoin is.
I only care about fungibility at spend time. I am not trying to hide criminal activity, because I am not a criminal.
I would be happy to switch to Bitcoin if they made the currency fungible. There's a lot of reliable ways to accomplish that, and it is a requirement if Bitcoin is going to be as useful as money as Monero is, but we have seen all the development resources go to Lightning, which to my view has been a patchwork clusterfuck with a lot of problems.
Monero is money, the rest are speculative cryptographic assets.
You are completely at the whims of a bureaucrat that has not bothered with Monero because no one uses it. That will at some point change.
Lightning works. Skill issue.
Lots of bureaucrats have attacked Monero and it has been removed from many national jurisdictions. you miss the point. everywhere Monero can be exchanged 1 XMR = 1 XMR. Every XMR is equally exchangable. This is not the case for Bitcoin, where the bureaucrat can welcome your deposits to an exchange but decide they must be seized post deposit because of the related transaction history of the Bitcoin.
Your point about 1 XMR = 1 XMR is true only for peer to peer transactions. The exchange off ramps have a half life. That is true of probably every cryptocurrency. But you can't pretend that XMR is not just 1 big coin join that can be viewed as such by a bureaucrat as soon as they change their mind.
Monero is programmatically fungible. It is true wherever XMR is traded, p2p or dex or centralized exchange.
Umm, you may be retarded if you think that monero being blacklisted from kyc exchanges somehow means it has less privacy or whatever you're trying to suggest
Umm, maybe you should read the words more closely to understand what I am suggesting. And umm, get blocked faggot.
I am very XMR bullish. But really the notion of "tainted coins" is moronic. First there is no such thing as a "coin" that can get any taint except by some bureaucrat claiming it had some connection to some wallet at some time that they think was involved in something they don't like. Never mind that most paper money in the world tests positive for cocaine. Never mind the big banks are caught again and again laundering criminal proceeds on MASSIVE scale and get a slap on the wrist.
But you are right. Transparent blockchains enable many evils.
There are still a few exchanges that offer Monero. And on those exchanges you don't have to fear being blacklisted based on your coin history. Same thing for swap services and merchants.
If you don't care about those things, or mostly use lightning, then I suppose it doesn't matter as much.