Replies (99)
Option 4 - Empty blocks only, to fairly filter all transactions
Sounds like a politician
Hi, maybe a simple question. How do you switch the profile/filter? In your Braiins OS. Thanks
Why ?
I assume that I can switch between block templates and there is no penalty to my rewards acquired so far?
Some people don't like knots, but they do like the rest of Ocean's decentralised philosophy.
This is a big development for Ocean
View quoted note →I found the answer:
"These are not separate pools! Whenever a miner using OCEAN finds a block, all of OCEAN's miners receive their share of the block earnings, even those mining a different template. This is a major step toward fully decentralized mining: OCEAN returns control to you, allowing you the option to mine the transactions you want without losing the benefits of pooled mining."
OCEAN - Alternate Templates
"These are not separate pools! Whenever a miner using OCEAN finds a block, all of OCEAN's miners receive their share of the block earnings, even those mining a different template. This is a major step toward fully decentralized mining: OCEAN returns control to you, allowing you the option to mine the transactions you want without losing the benefits of pooled mining."
OCEAN - Alternate Templates
Interesting, I guess I like this approach…
But if I were a miner simply optimizing for the most profitable block template, I might not want to split profits evenly with miners who consistently omit the top most profitable txs. Plus the ppl optimizing for profit are the only ones paying a pool fee 😂.
I guess the market will decide if this is acceptable.
Yeah. It would be interesting to know the splits between the templates
Unless this pool starts hitting blocks, like multiple blocks per week, I won't be able to continue contributing hash rate to it.
My node will validate and propagate blocks from templates 1 and 2 marginally faster 🫡
APPRECIATE YOU 🫡
What is the difference between 1 and 2 ?
PV 🤙
What is spam in the context of Bitcoin? Isn’t fee amount the only determinator?
anything but cash is spam
The pool is still relatively small. More need to join.
Thanks for more user choices 🥹
Agreed but I'm small too lol
For people who understand this better. When mining, isn’t it better to stick with a template for a relatively longer time, and not keep adding removing transactions from it?
This question has nothing to do with the options above.
I was just wonder, because when I look at the Ocean dashboard, the template changes every second. And for some reason I feel it is more probably to hit a block if the template doesnt change for say 3 minutes.
Might be completely wrong but that’s why I’m asking.
Same. I’m pointing my nerdminer somewhere else if we don’t hit blocks 😅
So you mean secondary use
1. as persistent storage (e.g. fake Multisig)
2. as publication medium (e.g. for time-stamping)
3. as general smart contract (e.g. time-locks)
…?
I particularly like the time-locks and wouldn’t consider these spam even if it means we carry them around.
But... Miners can decide what pool they mine with. So WTF is your point here? Or is there not one and you just want to virtue signal to Bitcoiners?
View quoted note →I guess lightning channels are spam then huh?
So the message in bitcoins first block made it a spam and it shouldn't be mined today by your standards? Interesting.
There have been inscriptions literally since the first block....
Can’t tell if I should consider this bending the knee or if it always was the plan to offer different templates 🤷♂️
I think you are wrong because the probability of finding a valid block at trial number N should follow a Geometric Distribution.
The Geometric Distribution has the property of being "memoryless".
Geometric distribution - Wikipedia
lightning is a differnt network, a different technology
centralized, operated by corporations
do your own research
do you use bitcoin as p2p cash?
I fully support ocean mining
View quoted note →Correct, it makes no difference. This indifference is part of what makes a hash function a "cryptographic hash function". The distribution is nearly gaussian, close enough to call it random.
Good luck lol
None of what you said is incorrect. So you're saying we should censor channel opens because they're spam by your definition. I just want to make sure I have this clear.
By your definition, Bitcoin will never scale because any attempt at an L2 isn't "cash" and should be censored?
Include the spam, or reject the spam?
The choice is yours!
View quoted note →Can i use bitaxe with ocean? Does ocean support solo mining and if in pool, can I get whatever little sats through LN?
lightning shares only the fiat price with bitcoin
it has nothing else with bitcoin in common. a different architecture, a centralized network operated by corporations which only works if it becomes more and more centralized. they allow you to open nodes but because of the architecture all of the small nodes will have to run through the big nodes which are operated by corporations, the same criminals who are doing all hoaxes and fake diseases.
you even need to 'exchange' lightning into bitcoin paying high fees
Again... I don't disagree with you here. But it does scale Bitcoin... Just not in the way that we as Bitcoiners would like it to.
Seems like you're avoiding my questions though...
Your fees incentive miners to do what you think how bitcoin should be used.
What a fucking clown 🤡 show!
🫂🫂🫂
lol
Se terminó el bloqueo y en spam 👏👏👏👏✨✨✨✨ viva la libertad 🗽
View quoted note →Opposite templates, which pick up specific TXs with lower than optimal fees:
* Anti OFAC
* LN channel opens/closes
* Coinjoins/mixer TXs
Have people mine blocks that help their use cases.
There's a lot of nuance, in this whole conversation. I think Bitcoin Mechanic did a great job explaining Ocean's position, in his conversation with Preston Push.
Never.
That cunt better choose life.
🤫
"Anti OFAC" literally none of their templates are OFAC compliant so all of them meet this criteria.
"LN channel opens/closes" These will also be included in every available template.
" Coinjoins/mixer TXs" There is no standard for these TXs so protocols like whirlpool that override the datacarrier to announce to the p2p layer that they are doing coinjoins may unfortunately be filtered out however should be possible through option 3 which is unmodified.
block #3 very soon
Core+Antispam also shouldn't have the whirlpool issue FWIW
Ok, my bad on that
The template has to be at least subtly different for every hash (which a mining chip does billions of every second)
The alternative is a centralized system
Lightning is cash too
Wrong
Working on it
NerdMiners can't mine
Correct, fees are per share submitted
The whole point of OCEAN is to decentralize mining. This is just the next logical step
I’ve never heard of this before, why would the template have to change each hash?
Really? You mean power wise or there is something functionally that doesnt let them mine? Really interested to learn.
you are unable to debate because you are obviously in a cult.
name one fact i have posted which is wrong and prove why it is wrong.
you can't
Interesting. I didn’t know that. Thank you.
Can you read? I'm highly critical of lightning... I've said I agreed with what you're saying. Then I asked you questions and you haven't clarified or answered any of them. Looks like the pot calling the kettle black to me... What are we even debating? You haven't made a claim I disagree other than censoring certain transactions, and I asked you if channel opens should be censored to clarify YOUR position. My position is clear. Don't censor any transactions.
In your opinion... That's the point. Spam, cash, VALUE is subjective. Satoshi already solved the spam problem with proof of work.
Also, I would agree, lightning Bitcoin is mostly used as cash.
you probably wanted to say uniform distribution.
Hash function have the design goal of inducing a probability distribution on their image which is closer to a uniform distribution as possible.
So the probability that h(X) = k is the same for every k.
continuous uniform distribution
Probability distribution - Wikipedia
which is commonly associated with gaussian normal distributions.
of course it's discrete integers but continuous implies total randomness since all bits are at play and not any holes in it or symmetries.
I don't understand why you say Gaussian, when it actual fact is uniform.
Also, it's discrete and not continuous, because the Image of all hash functions is discrete (countable infinity of rational numbers).
They couldn't have found a block in 2009 even.
They're far less than a CPU miner
The hash is the same for the same data
Yeah, I understand that, it’s just a dumb display.
centralized lightning with its seperate network, has nothing to do with satoshi nakamoto
read his whitepaper
Doesn’t changing the nonce render a new hash?
This is what I thought so if it’s incorrect then I’m happy to learn the difference
If you found a distribution pattern in a hash function, it's no longer a cryptographic hash function.
There is no such thing in the real world as continuous, it is impossible to measure or quantify. Saying that this disqualifies the use of "gaussian" for a random distribution over a finite field is not a tenable position due to the nature of computation.
The expression "cryptographic hash function" itself implies apparent continuity of distribution. As soon as the discontinuity is found in the distribution its security is busted.
The other thing that you can't say either is that it's not deterministic, because without determinism the hash function is not useful.
It will be great a pool with zero fees and LN payments from a non-profit organization on a ''.org'' domain.
I have
Yeah yeah, in this we agree. I was just lazy.
One should say:
X is a random variable representing the choice of a message at random (under probability distribution PX).
Then h(X) is a random variable, that induce a different probably distribution bla bla.
Yes, no such thing as continuity in the real world, real number are not physically real.
Buuut, they are very useful for making computations easiers.
I never disqualified the utility of the gaussian distribution, I simply pointed out the obvious that Gaussian != Uniform
> the expression "cryptographic hash function" itself implies apparent continuity of distribution.
No, it implies apparent uniformity of disitribution.
Continuity is another (topological) property.
f^(-1) (A) is an open set for every open set A.
The general idea was templates that includes as many TXs in a specific category, so they'll be mined earlier and cheaper. It's a stupid idea, but if people want more template options, this is going into the opposite direction of filtering.
Wow I'm not talking about lightning... I'm talking about transactions on main net.
Keep simping though.
bitcoin has very high fees that is why it is unuseable for payments.
monero or litecoin have extremely low fees and are used for payments providing privacy. monero the best privacy and ultralow fees.
Centralized on what layer?
If pool decentralization is your goal, new (or revived) pools constructing blocks with low rewards isn’t going to attract any meaningful hash power. It’s simply not economically rational for anyone involved.
More pools competing on rewards, features, and specialization is the only way.
If block template decentralization is your goal, then let’s focus on finishing the SV2 spec for block negotiation, and make it easy for pools & miners to use. The big pools will happily pass that regulatory risk off to the individual miners.
That’s great to hear and sincerely hope they won’t be stopped by government. The only thing I can’t help thinking about is if they launched a few weeks late but in this state: “okay miners will choose if they want to include inscriptions or not” there would be no drama and disappointment but I guess they wanted to live through this discussion to lay down their arguments.
This might served to explain ordinals and BRC20 as a spam due to a bug. Which is a legit argument I believe.
Lastly maybe the Public Relations guy should be the Bitcoin Mechanic instead of Luke. Even though Luke may have the purest of intentions I think its safe to say he has not the best communication skills.
And makes it a different template, albeit only slightly
Miners have template choice. Greate move, thank you for helping secure the BTC network and a great compromise. Love the pool!!
gaussian is continuous uniform distribution. aliasing is an inherent property of finite fields. if this error of precision says it's not gaussian than what use is the expression "gaussian distribution" anyway?
perhaps ergodicity is a more accurate expression, since this doesn't carry baggage of theoretical and impossible things with it?
it's super magical stuff anyway. non-crypto people don't get it.
The plan is to give miners the control over the templates they want to use, the specific ASIC that find the block will choose the template and him alone, but this is only possible with Stratum V2.
While Stratum V2 is not there, they are offering you to choose from pre-stablished block templates.
1 you use knots node
2 you use bitcoin core modified to enforce that inscriptions respect the extra data limit configured in the node. (Currently there is a bug where idiots creating inscriptions can put 3 MB data in the extra data even if you specifically configured your node to relay only 80bytes)
The problem is the lack of moral compass.
You are saying that an idiot with an infinite amount of money can destroy the Bitcoin network or at least make it useless just because he can pay for it. Congratulations.
I appreciate your calm.
Exactly, but Luke thinks he can decide how people have to use bitcoin. That’s why he call it „spam“ or „bug“ or „vulnerability“
Let me ask you something. Is there an infinite amount of Bitcoin? No? Then he will run out of money.
This seems important; like a bigger deal than most think. Very cool.
Thanks
Bitcoin doesn't have or need a moral compass to work. It's a computer program. Bitcoin doesn't care.
