Replies (94)
no clue but very interested in learning more about this
You don't know who broadcasts an event because we don't have relay authentication. The only way to do it is encrypted dms
so no renotes, quotenotes?
Once you sign and give that to somebody, you can never block its spread, independent of Nostr. We can make it harder, but somebody else can make it easier.
I could still take a screenshot and repost it, right?
You can always just hop in your Time Machie (aka nostr signature revocation device)
Hmm. Thank you. Do you mean essentially a mass DM tool? That sounds bad. I wrote a bash script to do this with noscli a while back. I was looking for something to essentially replace OnkyFans via Nostr. 😂
Yes, we can always screenshot. But we could use NIP-94/95 to make them authentic.
😂👀
I don’t really get all the interest in paid content here to be quite honest. Isn’t the whole point that information should be free and open to everyone? 🤔
Wouldn’t it be easier to encrypt the event and sell the decryption key to the paid subscribers? Like the cable channels being static unless you paid
That makes sense. I am trying to think out a solution here for subscriber content, but since Nostr is all public data besides DMs, I don't think it's solvable?
can I have your nsec?
Anything is possible 💫👏🏻👑💜
Creators need to make a living.
Are to trying to censor content behind a paywall?
If so, you might have come to the wrong place.
Fair point. I like and prefer value for value. Maybe I'm trying to find a solution that I myself don't actually even support and letting my excitement about growing Nostr get ahead of me. Thanks Steven.
Hmmmmm touché i guess 😂
Zaps?
Possibly, but now that we're having this discussion, I don't like it.
Delete. Delete! 😂
A paywall is not censorship 😂😂😂
For socials yes but at some point the protocol will need some monetization if only to pay for relays and client development
You don’t have to monetise actual eyeballs.
You can monetise merchandise, services, engagement, lots of options.
Yes, but some content will lend itself to Zapwalls, subscriptions, zap to unlock, etc.
A lot of different models could/should work.
💯
Very important to keep in mind
The protocol needs to be supported in some way, this idea just allows people to decide how much it is worth to them
Stu, with this logic, I could argue that paying for merchandise is censoring poor people 😂
It’s self censoring for self interest.
Merchandise isn’t information.
You can’t censor goods and services can you? Only information?
I’m thinking aloud here.
Buying T-shirts is censoring nips 😤😂
😂
But also, I do agree that if there isn’t a way for creators to be paid then a lot of good content will never be created.
I’m pragmatic, not really an ideologist.
In a way you can, taxes and tariffs, sanctions, laws etc. It censors by paywall in a similar way in my opinion
Encryption for private content over nostr.
The main thing is to make it juat annoying enough
The real crux of the issue, something has to give somewhere realistically
Nothing exists without business/economic incentives. Nothing is free. Nostr is for freedom but Nostr is not free, nostr relays needs money ( power and storage ) to run.
Sure, the big relays are current burning through circa $10k a year and that’s with about 8,000 active users.
Seems like we as users should each be spending $1-5 a year on nostr.
Meta has $120bn revenue from 2bn users. So they are making $60/yr from each user.
Seems achievable, just need some biz models.
Value for value means if you like it you zap them, which should drive great content creation. To me, having a paywall for content on nostr is kinda just creating an opportunity for rugging quality
Also there is a distinction to be made between content and things like hosting or relays. Those would fall under goods/services
“Superfollowing” were one of my most unfavorite aspects of the shitty bird app and it almost sounds like people want to recreate that here 🥺
Maybe like zapgate the note is locked behind a paywall no matter if spread, you only going able to see it if you zap.
You can do it in a new event kind that is similar to private messages. In that way, the only way to leak the message is to leak one's main private key.
It's possible to leak it but it has a cost.
Relays are a tangible infrastructural service though, not content
I’m not sure how we can have freedom, without supporting people who fight for it. The idealist believes this can be done through the generosity and a belief in V4V. I’m sceptical that this will be enough. There needs to be a way for freedom fighters to monetize their work. Selling one’s followers to advertisers is not the way, but nostr opens up a multitude of avenues to explore beyond just the V4V model.
Personally, I would be happy to pay for a subscription for relays and the use of a client, and would pay zaps to unlock a reputable persons content, zap to donate to a non profit such as relayable, and zap individuals for memes, jokes, insightful comments etc.
So using me as an example, there are 4 models I would use to support the ecosystem.
I think the concept of a craigslist for nostr is the way to do what you are asking. Simply post something for sale and people can buy it.
Would be no different than someone buying a music CD in a store. They could rip it and then post the songs on nostr. Then you could send take down notices to all the relays.
This is the path nostr will see eventually. People will misuse it and other people will try to take it down.
Nostr is freedom, and there will be some pirates...
The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do. For instance, you can accept that pirates will use nostr for good and bad, or you can't. But pirate is in the protocol, boy, so you'll have to square with that some day. And me, for example, I can let you drown, but I can't code the ecosystem all by me onesies, savvy? So, can you code under the freedom of nostr, or can you not?
Zaps are the best way I think. So simple and scalable.
At big tech scale you could potentially earn a lot from creating viral content for real humans.
It seems very wrong that Apple have blocked zaps. At eg TikTok scale it would be a complete deal breaker if I could get zaps on Android but not iPhone.
The more we talk about it, I'd rather just do value for value. It's half of the reason I fell in love with Nostr in the first place. I believe this was juste being misguided and trying to find a solution that didn't need to be solved.
Agee here. Zaps are better. 🤝🏻 Zaps has Apple afraid.
Ultimately things like IP will fade away imo. Rewarding value at the source, patronage will take over. If the people commit to it. Plenty from the last 10 years shows this is viable. Supporting creators because you want to see more from them, not simple exchange transactions.
I appreciate the thinking out loud on this. In the end, I feel that Zaps and value for value are best here. I was trying to grow Nostr so hard that I was looking past a solution that we already have in place.
View quoted note →So people shouldn't get paid, and art/music/literature should all be free then?
We should have both implemented. Market decides.
Yeah basically
Nothing wrong with paying for stuff. Or only do stuff for payment.
Sphinx chat (
https://buy.sphinx.chat/) still works and handle paid content very smoothly and flexibly.
You can pay (₿ over Lightning⚡️) and folks can pay subscriptions which are paid directly to your Sphinx account (peer-to-peer).
Seriously. It's so far ahead of NOSTR in this regard that it's not even worthy of comparison.
DM me and I'll set you up with a Lite node.
https://buy.sphinx.chat/
It costs a one-time fee of 3000 ṩats (less than $1 USD at today's rates).
My Sphinx ID:
022bb41d512e5d265b0073ac78428d522a4637f6c94d7bda8a6840d00ac3965814:02736e7dad83d7205826649fc17db672ce08f8e87a2b47c7785ccbf79f24e91db0:1099657510913
Asking for payment for something you made is self censorship?
It should be given to someone for nothing?
Am I missing something?
It is true that I zap far less when I can’t press the button on individual posts, even though it’s still possible through the profile button
Yes, nobody said that second sentence.
You have hallucinated it.
I think, in general, the contribution that a good editor can provide is underappreciated.
😂 I did but I was just trying to take the next step.
Zaps are a game changer and we all know it.
We can’t unsee it.
🍌 whoops 😅
I wasn’t really making a point, just being obtuse with Derek. It’s just v. hard to do paywalls on nostr because nostr is censor resistant.
Content spreads to lots of uncontrolled placed very quickly here.
Yes, this is true. I was thinking of zap.stream in particular. Pay to unlock a stream of a creator etc. I think certain content lends itself to different monetization models.
I think private non-rebroadcasting relays are the only way that access restriction is going to work. And even then white listing npubs isn't enough. You would need access to an area or content individually signed by an extension of nsec bunker.
People may not like it, but it is necessary for the growth of nostr. People will continue to use telegram, Facebook, OF, etc as long as that where they can have voluntary walled gardens. And we do need those, as long as people choose them.
What is needed is a way to extend LN Payments in the wild the way relays extend notes. If everything is custodial, it may as well be on a mastercard or visa.
Actually it goes to what ODELL just said about the blue checks on twitter: The path Elon is taking leads to every person on twitter being verified and completely captured by one powerful person... and almost nobody cares. They say oh, yah that has value for $8, gimme my blue check... meanwhile they just put a tag on their ear for the interrim while they are fattened up for slaughter.
That's not the appropriate framing for any discussion about development of an open and free protocol suite (such as NOSTR).
The appropriate framing is that existing and prospective users want services and content AND ARE WILLING TO PAY FOR IT.
The features should be driven by user demand and desires — not be the those of "content providers."
The major problems with commercial social media platforms emerge from the choice to cater to "providers" (most advertisers and marketers — pushing "content" on the one hand, and ingesting user data for monetization on the other).
It ultimately degenerates into the "enshittification" that's described by the Doctorow doctrine:
Pluralistic: Tiktok’s enshittification (21 Jan 2023) – Pluralistic: Daily links from Cory Doctorow
This thread 😮💨🔥
#grownostr #paynostr
You misunderstand my point. This thread has more detailed responses and discussion. Content providers will not determine how nostr is structured but there need to be avenues for them to use, which don’t affect the end users that don’t wish to use those avenues, if nostr is to grow. It’s about choice for the users and the people who create content. Maybe you want to stream and have sats sent, maybe you want to put it behind a zap wall. Maybe you are a user who doesn’t like zap walls so you only view streams that are open and choose to zap the creator during the stream.
Choice is the key here and content providers need choice just like end users.
Once content is out , it’s over. It can be copied
Unless you find an negative incentive to prevent copying , like revealing private key … though not sure how
For me, it's more than just pay wall for the sake of money. I like the idea of being able to share with a group stuff not meant for broader public consumption.
Once the content is opened, viewed, it then can be copied, rebroadcasted.
Can I DM you somewhere to ask about this 😇
I can’t think of a way you can restrict content once it is revealed. The same problem all streaming services have.
Sure. You can DM me on Nostr.
sadly greed goes everywhere.
private relay, dm lists, encrypted notes, plenty of options.
I use damus without zapple pay. Profile zaps are way less fun and easy but oh well
Absolutely, I pay now an artist to incentivize future work
Paying for work or in this case "information" already done and that can be copied have no sense at all
The only way is to trust other people to not share those stuff
But in no way you can force someone not to share information
If you take out coercion and theft, value 4 value it's what moves the world.
The only thing I would add is that, we cannot pretend to get something when we give out information. When information are shared it's already too late to get something back for it. The only thing you can look into are donations from people that value your work and want more from you.
If you think, when you are paying for a subscription plan you are paying to support the future work of an artist, you are not paying for the work he already have done. Morally and phisically it does not make sense to pay to get informations that have already been created and shared. But it does make sense to give money (time and energy) to someone that can give you back value in a way you cannot give it to yourself.
Et les règles du droit d'auteur ne sont elles pas respectées dans nostr.? C'est un grand problème d'ordre juridique même me sur un support décentralisé... Autrement nostr deviendrait une jungle de pirateries et d'escroqueries en tout genre donc pas de valeurs morales ni juridiques. Il ne vaudrait pas la peine de créer une plate-forme qui serait un cauchemar de Dante. *Putain* il y a déjà des escrocs dont on soupçonnerait du fait de la renommée.. Ne dysfonctionnons pas même avec des clés la vie numérique demeure
Yep, as soon AI gets 10x better and cheaper, no human creator will be able to provide more value than an AI via internet
Sad but true, human skills are only real social interactions
In a world full of creators and arts who will really look for authentic pieces?
Right. But there is a big difference in friction between rebroadcasting to all with a single click (e.g. Retweet) and having to decrypt, save, and then send. Also, paying even a small amount upfront changes filters a lot of unwanted attention and creates a perception of the information being not intended for everyone.
I'm not talking digital scarcity, but rather a more guarded approach to social media.
Friction is the perfect word here.
I think too that everything that can be done or shared should be "payed" at least for the amount that is needed for the transaction to be made or to be stored.
The problem is that transaction and storing cost are almost 0 so even if you made the procedure hard, as soon as you decrypt it, then sharing is really easy.
You need the Relays to have to ask for cost of rebroadcasting, but as soon as a price is put, it will create a market, and in a market the cost will always fall into the maintenance price, that will also fall when the technology advance.
C'est vrai. Les règles du driot d'auteur ne sont pas respectées dans nostr parce que “nostr” ne décide rien. C’est nous qui décidons de partager (ou pas) ce qu’il a partagé un auteur. Si c'etait possible d'interdire cette échange d'information, il serait possible d’interdire l’échange pour n’importe quelle raison.
@Vitor Pamplona and I have been discussing this. If you wrap an unsigned event, that inner event is 1. encrypted and 2. invalid, and so can't be rebroadcasted.
I am very happy with that idea. I think we should do this.
We should? How is that even an argument? We are encouraged to by every union meeting. What?
Which time zone are you guys again? Quantum Troglodytes?
I think it has its plusses and minuses. After I suggested it, I realized I like value for value more.
Well, it's useful not just for paywalls, but any private use case as well
Derek.
Please help.
(1) I found my P2PKH private key. The miner will likely receive 50 BTC for generating a NEW BLOCK.
(1)(a) How do I compress an uncompressed private key that is Base 58 P2PKH to WIF compressed format so I can import my funds?
(1)(b) How do I sign my transaction by generating the signature with my private key from a previous transaction? Do I have to do that because it's P2PKH?
(2) Does Nostrgram still work because I cannot see any messages I post there buy I see them in Damus for Android? If so, please contact the Nostrgrsm admin and send this message.
Thanks.
Hey dans le secteur des Arts il a fallu qu'on crée des agences officielles et des lois afin que de protéger toute œuvre... Heureusement sinon ce serait du vol imaginez que vous écrivez un livre, créér une oeuvre qu'elle soit et que quelqu'un d'autre s'en approprie cela va au delà de l'inadmissible.... Rien que cette semaine sur Nostr j'ai dû tomber sur une interaction qu'un nostriche dénoncer une arnaque puisqu'une autre personne s'est approprié l'œuvre qu'il avait partagée en note... Nous devons prendre en compte ce type de problématiques à partir du moment où nous nous considérons entre en vase clos dans ce Monde décentralisé qui ne veut pas dire qu'on serait dans un endroit sans foi et loi... Merci
LLM chat AI systems are changing our perception of what are uniquely human skills.
Ironically, prostitution may become one of the most highly valued services because actual, in-the-flesh, interactions may remain impossible to artificially replicate/simulate.
Non-sexual, more traditional geisha (芸者) services may also also experience a resurgence for the same reasons.
Also 10x improvement may be achieved in only a bit over five years. It could follpw Moore's Law, doubling in capacity roughly every 18 months. 10x is an increment past two doublings.
