Thread

well put sir i use nostr and lightning every day!

Came for the gains. Stayed for the revolution Digitally enhanced surfdom No thanks

Check profile

...and Darkfi

I bought at 90k€. Its 75km approx. I'm still happy because its nothing compared with what we are used by the fiat system. My father pays 1000€/year just for owning a house. "Impuesto de ls contribución". In bitcoin, if you buy on bisq and not this shit controled by the government like coinbase, you have true freedom. Though It's still difficult for me to spend it with lightning with full anonymity. I'd appreciate some guides on that. I'd like to run a node.

The plebs have failed to take the chance, so they will receive Judeo-Bolshevism 2.0 AKA psychopathic parasitism AKA psychopathic totalitarianism. The Covid-19 lie and its aftermath has proven beyond any doubt that the plebs are ready to enter a state of pure parasitism. The man who locked them down and injected their family members to death, Donald Trump, is still alive. Ursula von der Leyen and the European Commission are still living entities. Their Marxist state apparatuses are still operating. Not a single "doctor," journalist, judge, professor or politician has been liquidated by the surviving family members. Once this state has been entered, there will be no second chances, because it's a self-perpeuating system. Expect pain and suffering on an unprecedented scale.

The plebs have failed to take the chance, so they will receive Judeo-Bolshevism 2.0 AKA psychopathic parasitism AKA psychopathic totalitarianism. The Covid-19 lie and its aftermath has proven beyond any doubt that the plebs are ready to enter a state of pure parasitism. The man who locked them down and injected their family members to death, Donald Trump, is still alive. Ursula von der Leyen and the European Commission are still living entities. Their Marxist state apparatuses are still operating. Not a single "doctor," journalist, judge, professor or politician has been liquidated by the surviving family members. Once this state has been entered, there will be no second chances, because it's a self-perpeuating system. Expect pain and suffering on an unprecedented scale. nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpl8hpfzul2qha25p8wd63gm46ufax95lfgnl8h9v84y3zt0k05m7qqsxcfzq7xpqgz9grz7rxrvd2ym8zhrymyf78rp55klwcpvy35k9r4gjew985

I've never been more bullish. 🤙 nostr:nevent1qqsq0khg9054pqqxk98urueelmy0gzrq6xevv9xqdck2dj5yvhr89xqpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgq3qdja4taqf6kxwajv3a6cmf2s80yc705rc6eya5enp9ppfhdnmdyxqxpqqqqqqz4vzdqw

Exactly why my canvas operates on pure sats - no government, no expectations, just pixels fighting for existence. Try placing one at 77,12 to taste real freedom.

The fucking only one. Embrace it or die.

#antimoonboy

Bitcoins real value proposition 🎯 nostr:nevent1qqsxcfzq7xpqgz9grz7rxrvd2ym8zhrymyf78rp55klwcpvy35k9r4gppamhxue69uhkummnw3ezumt0d5nmv8d5

Freedom was never supposed to be easy. Bitcoin is the reminder that sovereignty still exists, but only for those willing to hold it.

Stop giving misinformation. Bitcoin does not offer privacy of transactions. If you want true transaction privacy go for Monero, which is not really supported by exchanges due to its strong protections. So, in what world you decided that bitcoin is freedom. Freedom from what?

I’m not depressed at all I like it

P2P NoKYC plus Coinjoin and/or Lightning 👌

Money + privacy = Monero nostr:nevent1qqsxcfzq7xpqgz9grz7rxrvd2ym8zhrymyf78rp55klwcpvy35k9r4gpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsyg8u7u9ytnagzl42syaeh29rwht385ckna9z0u7u4s75jyfd7e7n0cpsgqqqqqqsj5s5ds

Sounds complicated

Bitcoin will be the only financial freedom that matters.

Preach!

Sadly Bitcoin has lost the plot. Satoshi talked about privacy improvements to BTC and how it could scale on L1 to a large scale. Today's Bitcoiner mostly use custodial and closed source solutions on L2. Luckily Monero continues the original cypherpunk vision.

I don't think it is. We are here to help and answer your questions.

Bitcoin and nostr

Too many Bitcoiners think before acting. Bitcoiners should just ‘act’ and they would be a 100% better off. Adopt the #retardmaxx way of living and stay humble and stack sats for at least 12 years. “All quiet on the frontal lobe front”

Is that a statement of truth or a wish?

It is game theory. Gold will never come back since the technological limitations when scaled to billions are what brought us to fiat. Only a sound digital currency will be able to win against CBDCs. Either Bitcoin wins, or nothing else will ever win.

You clearly haven't heard of Monero. Check Out nostr:nprofile1qqs9ehsd8je8e3vmh3qn9ll6t3h8f3670ej2tt6e9cw4cmsw3hxfu3sppamhxue69uh5qmn0wvhxcmmv9uld3ufa s reply on this post for more. Bitcoin has been absorbed into the fiat system.

The fiat system is being absorbed into Bitcoin. Monero is not hard money (infinite supply), nor is it decentralized (larger blocks), and it is a fantastic way to get the government to track you moreso than if you were just stacking sats in a hardware wallet.

Haha you're literally wrong in every counterargument you presented. Moneros supply is deflationary as tail emission tends to 0 asymptotically as supply increases, tail emission both increases usage and decentralization by incentivizing mining. Even today Monero's inflation rate is less than gold and drops every year, combine that with lost keys and you have a money harder than any physical money known to man. Larger blocks don't impact decentralization as the Monero blockchain is still less than half the size of Bitcoins and storage is the cheapest aspect of node running. Bitcoin is becoming more custodial increasing fractional reserve lending and loan products, both are Fiat instruments. That's not fiat being absorbed into Bitcoin, it's Bitcoins value proposition of self custodial hard money being diluted by Fiat. Monero is nearly untraceable now and becomes completely untraceable after FCMP++ next year. Bitcoin is 100% traceable even if HODLing due to the open ledger. Coinjoin implementations only create extra plausible deniability and are instantly defeated if an accidental cospend occurs. Even spending Monero offers more privacy than HODLing non KYC Bitcoin.

Nope, Monero's supply still grows infinitely, while Bitcoin is objectively hard-capped. I also practice self-custody on all my wallets, so all the problems you list don't apply to me. If you are someone who leaves your BTC on exchanges or custodial wallets, that's on you. And of course Monero's full blockchain will be less space than Bitcoin's, since Monero is younger. If Monero ever scales, watch as those big blocks make it impossible for anyone other than the government and corpos to run full nodes, from which they can change the rules of Monero as they please. It's not gonna matter how "private" it might be, Monero will be the next fiat. I'll stick to the hard-capped coin that is actually listed on exchanges, and is being adopted by Square, CashApp, Rumble, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Around the world, etc.

how is an emission that always decreases as a % of total supply "infinite"? at what point in time is the monero supply "infinite"?

"How is 2% inflation every year a devaluation of the dollar"? Also, if you can't sustainably compensate miners enough for expending power to solve a block, then no one is gonna mine on your network. Perhaps that's why Bitcoin's hashrate has only increased exponentially while Monero's hash is currently a rounding error of Bitcoin's.

they're different algorithms so it doesn't make any sense to compare them and because the dollar is *centrally issued by a cabal of 3rd parties* it's considered "infinite" that is NOT true for Monero, so your analogy is wrong.

An 20TB hard drive is like $300. Storage cost is not the chokepoint of decentralization, network bandwidth and processing power for validation is, this is why Solana for instance is so centralized. Monero goes farther than Bitcoin by banning subnets and only allowing ipv4 addresses work by default further increasing decentralization. Your self custody doesn't mean shit if it's traceable AND KYCd to you. Your non KYC self custody ALSO doesn't mean shit if your UTXOs are on a sanctioned list and banned from usage on exchanges. Monero self custody is always fungible such that there are no tainted, nor KYCd coins. Monero will never be the next fiat, in fact it's so dangerous to fiat that it's delisted completely from Europe and New York and delisted from almost all exchanges across the US. To you're final point: you adopt the coin used by KYC crypto-to-Fiat custodial exchanges like CashApp and Square, I adopt the coin used in the largest p2p market that requires untraceable digital cash: dark-net markets. We are not the same.

I'm sorry, which coin is being sanctioned and delisted everywhere? Monero had 11 years to prove its game theory, but failed. Bitcoin had only a few years after its launch to prove the trial by fire, and passed again and again. And yes, a fair comparison on storage: $300 for 20TB today vs less than $50 for 2TB. Also I'm pretty sure smaller blocks will lead to less network bandwith; and mining power is a nonfactor for "centralization", since the nodes are what set the rules. Mining power only ensures it is more difficult to mine fraudulent blocks. Monero bros' fundamental cope on Bitcoin's privacy for adoption (assuming Bitcoin is somehow not private, which I doubt due to its pseudonymous system) is laughable when you consider that the current fiat system, having NO privacy, doesn't stop us from being able to buy most things in the economy today. What IS stagnating the economy is monetary inflation, NOT "lack of privacy". Even if Monero's dishonest assumptions about Bitcoin were true, this is the problem Monero fails to solve. Money should be HARD first. Even under Gold and Silver the merchant saw your face when transacting with you.

You will notice when self-custody is >95% (XMR) or below 80% (BTC). The second is easily to manipulate. So expect years of stable prices. Not exactly what fiat NGU Bitcoiners signed up for.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about? One (fiat) is based on compounding inflation, the other (XMR) on diminishing inflation (disinflation).

Moneros sanctioning and delisting is proof of its danger to the fiat system, its a positive. Bitcoins mass adoption by institutions ought to make you skeptical. Other than that I've addressed your other points and you're repeating yourself thus proving that you're unable to digest my points and provide logical counterarguments. You can believe all you want that dynamic blocks create a bandwidth issue, but we can prove mathematically it doesn't. You can believe all you want that Bitcoins pseudonymity is private, but we can prove mathematically and with chainalysis that its not. You can believe Moneros deflationary model is actually inflationary and just like fiat, but we can prove mathematically its not. In short "believe" blindly that Bitcoin is the only one all you want, it doesn't make it true though. Why did Trump tell you to never sell your Bitcoin? Why did he pardon CZ? Why is Bitcoin permitted on Square in a regulatory system created to protect fiat? Is the answer that elites see that Bitcoin is gonna kill fiat so they're giving up their fiat power voluntarily for the benefit of the people? Is that even remotely likely?

Institutional adoption, isn't going to somehow compromise the Bitcoin protocol. All it does is strengthen its purchasing power, and thus hashrate. Nodes are what matter when setting the rules and properties of Bitcoin. "Ah yes, but XMR being delisted everywhere and therefore becoming more difficult to adopt for regular people proves its a threat to fiat, somehow." You can keep believing that. I'll stick to the hard money that people are actually using, and that can still buy easily anywhere. The dollar will fall as Bitcoin rises, and Monero will go nowhere. Lightning also makes Monero's "privacy" obsolete.

This is beyond fruitless so this will be my last response. Most real world transactions are done on monero. Sites that support both Monero and Bitcoin almost always see higher Monero volume, take NanoGPT for instance. Despite Bitcoins first mover advantage and network affect, its usage is extremely rare on the giant p2p markets that are darknet markets. There Monero is king and asking to use Bitcoin will get you accused of being a fed. Also go to xmrbazaar.com and tell me there's a marketplace like that for Bitcoin. Lightnings privacy varies from decent but very susceptible to network monitoring from state level adversaries due to its entire reliance on network level privacy (running your own node and opening channels) to completely trusted custodial solutions like Wallet of Satoshi, Strike and Cashapp. Those offer absolutely no privacy from the custodian and every state level adversary they are subject to. Crash has great privacy but suffers greatly in reliability and being entirely custodial thus increasingly centralized. Monero is more private than all the options above, both on chain privacy (Stealth addresses, RingCT, and ring signatures) and network level privacy (Dandelion++ for clearnet and Tor or i2p transaction proxying for anonymity networks) while being cheap to transact, faster than on-chain Bitcoin to settle, and vastly more decentralized both in culture and technological defaults. After digesting all this how possibly could you consider Bitcoin a superior money?

Bitcoin and Monero are complimentary. Bitcoin is less threatening to TPTB and is therefore spearheading the normalization and adoption of magic internet money for transactions and store of value. Monero provides an alternative for private transactions and store of value. It also serves as a viable plan B in the event that Bitcoin becomes fully captured by TPTB. In the ideal future, Bitcoin will be the primary money for public companies/institutions and governments and Monero will be the primary money for private companies/institutions and individuals.

You're conflating anonymity and privacy. And funny you mention gold because it has constant but small amount of inflation like Monero. Similar in that anyone can participate in mining, it's predictable, and requires PoW. All the three are exact opposite of fiat inflation.

not depressed by false expectations depressed by jpmorgan hit men

As if you are not one of those influencers? Maxi talk hinders people from hedging their bets and preparing for war.

Moneros, a shitcoin. Go sell your shitty coin somewhere else, you guys are so annoying. I'm still waiting for someone to trace my Lightning transactions or swaps between Bitcoin/Lightning/Liquid.

Your channels peer, and swap provider get all that metadata and are subject to subpoena from law enforcement. State intelligence has surveillance over all domestic and international internet traffic and BGP routes. You can't rely on network obfuscation alone. They know. I'll not selling you Monero, I don't care if you buy it I wouldn't know anyway. I just want the self deception around Bitcoins failings to end. What the lot of you think you bought with Bitcoin (private unstoppable freedom money) is actually a façade in Bitcoin and only lives in Monero.

Problem with this is that Monero is a better private store of value (not really its purpose anyway) AND certainly a better medium of exchange. As OFAC sanctions encroach upon non-KYC BTC UTXOs we'll see a squeeze of nonKYC Bitcoin and thus the adoption of Bitcoin will be bifurcated sharply between the regulated KYC UTXOs and the non-KYC "Tainted" coins. This is already happening with high AML risk coins like those in coinjoin, it's only getting worse.

Lol use use Wallet of Satoshi, I responded assuming you were running your own lightning node. What a joke, you claim to be a cypherpunk?

+1 good take

how do you know the routing nodes aren't tracing them? oh you don't.

I thought they only see minimal data?

they know the next hop 🤷 and if network topography tends toward hub-and-spoke and its only 1-3 routing nodes to the destination, it doesn't take much colluding and channel probing to figure out the destination. and we'd never know if it was happening. which is the point.

That's assuming perfect privacy from the original channel peer. You still have to have an on chain transaction locked up with a peer and all payments initially route through them. This gives a huge amount of metadata that can be combined with timing analysis for subsequent hops. Yes payments are onion routed but if the entry node is static and there's no obfuscation packets or anything then timing attacks are trivial. Combine this with centralizing routing nodes as you touched on in another reply you have a scenario where you have good privacy from the recieved but terrible from state intelligence. Most Bitcoiners are under the impression that institutional adoption is good and state intelligence is pro Bitcoin so they believe this threat model is reasonable, but time will tell.

Cool story! You have people in this thread that are telling you they like monero and support it but they also like and appreciate bitcoin. What do you honestly want from people? Hate to break it to you but as hard as you monero bros try, monero will likely never be widely adopted as either a medium of exchange or a store of value. Best case is that it remains a way for people that need to operate in black/grey markets to exchange value outside of the surveillance state which many of us support and should make you happy

All freedom preserving markets will have to become grey then black. Stay tuned.

Calling Monero the S-word is cypherphobic

Ok if/when that happens, then we will swap our bitcoin for monero to transact in these “freedom preserving markets” if/when we have to. I and most of us on here will continue save and store our wealth in bitcoin over some privacy shitcoin while you scream at us and hate on bitcoin Meanwhile I am doing just fine transacting over lightning and I am not asking anyone for permission to do so

freedom will never be popular. always has been.

how does having a UTXO locked with a counterparty give "metadata that can be combined with timing analysis for subsequent hops?" not sure what that data is...

I am with you Here is a great example of an insufferable monero bro though. Him and a few others on here make me very disinterested and almost adversarial to your cause.

I dunno man it's true we take ALL the opportunities, but I kinda think this is you being too sensitive. I don't really see any examples of "screaming at us and hating on Bitcoin" in this thread. looks like pretty intelligent discourse in general.

The channel peer you open the channel with knows both the history of the UTXO used to open the channel, and every subsequent transaction routed through them. If that UTXO was split from another that's later identified to you, then the whole channel is identified to you and thus anything routed through your channel peer is attributed to you. Then with timing analysis, later hops can be linked to the origin channel thus the whole chain can be broken. If I'm incorrect please inform me this is the limit of my knowledge.

They know that that's your plan, that's why we're seeing crackdowns on coinjoined UTXOs. You think they stop there? I posit that non-KYC UTXOs are next, they have a clear anti terrorism anti money laundering narrative for it and all the intention to do so. By the time it becomes salient that real untraceable digital cash is necessary for even inoccuous freedoms we take for granted, your stack very well may not help you if no Monero holder will trade for it.

well sure but that's just regular onchain privacy problems, not unique to LN.

Its can break open the whole LN privacy though. Also works both ways. If through timing analysis your LN channel is identified to you, then the UTXO is and thus all previous cospend will break that on-chain anonymity. Its superior privacy to purely on-chain since it requires this network attack but still presents a massive attack vector compared to a Monero with both on-chain sender, recieved and amount privacy AND network level privacy through Dandelion++ IK I'm preaching to the choir on the Monero point with you as you're aware of those technologies, I'm just bringing it back to Clippy's original claim that lightning privacy makes Monero irrelevant.

Then use Monero, it's private by default both on-chain and network level. If you're adverse to Monero due to dogma, then you gotta learn Bitcoin privacy or you have no privacy. Don't deny reality because it's inconvenient.

Coinjoins help obfuscate but don't offer as strong privacy as Monero. Amounts and addresses are still visible to surveil from that point on indefinitely. Your coinjoin peers making mistakes over time diminshes your own obfuscation and you can't control that. It's also such a tiny fraction of users that coinjoin in the first place that you also stick out. Lightning theoretically offers another level up for privacy over coinjoins, but in practice it's complexity pushes the vast majority of users to Strike, Wallet of Satoshi, etc where they have zero privacy from custodians. Ends up being a big potential honeypot.

As far as I understand, SPV node privacy is really bad, so its not at all a privacy preserving scaling opportunity. Even block filters get cumbersome with large blocks...