Replies (60)
From what I have seen, most people don't even take the time to consider the theology of their sect and most RC don't even know or consider this point about good works. Most people are just born into and accept the culture they were given.
Ask the majority of RC folks and they will give the same answer as any other christian.
If they are religious, they will acknowledge salvations is through Jesus Christ who is the way the truth and the life. More likely the average person won't be religious enough to even fully considered the routine of their daily lives, even if they attend church and follow the tradions of the liturgical year.
I think the point I am trying to make is that the language of "average" you use. Most people are not interested in knowledge or truth or theology and the sect doesn't really change that. An average person is likely to say they are RC without caring about religiosity.
While I am RC, I do not claim to be an expert in theology despite having an interest in it. Does the RC doctrine say baptism is a requirement for salvation? It does teach that this is the ordinary and necessary means for salvation for those to whom the gospel has been proclaimed. However it also leaves room for those who are not baptized to be saved through the merciful action of Christ if it is according to his plan. Nothing is impossible for God and if he chooses to save someone who is not baptized he can.
The paradox I find the most troubling is the young death of children who were not baptized. I find it troublesome to argue that God would not be willing to save these children because they weren't baptized through no fault of their own even with original sin being involved.
If I truly believe this yes. The question is do I? Some days perhaps more than others as faith is uncertain by its very nature.
What determines whether you feel 100% confident in Jesus's sacrifice or not? How well you are doing in your faith or how well life is going for you?
💯
Overcoming the accusations of Satan and being confident that you are worthy of salvation is a challenge I imagine most people face during their life. At times I lack that confidence.
Nobody can be worthy of salvation, brother.
So it doesn't matter what you do ?
Are you suggesting that those who truly trust in the worthiness of Jesus Christ will behave as if they have a license to sin?
If you are being rescued by Jesus Christ, you will seek to flee sin (having granted a new nature that hates it) and achieve ever greater obedience out of gratefulness and love.
Do you only do good deeds out of fear of being condemned to hell? That seems like a coercive, evil way for God to "inspire" Christians.
If we could be worthy of salvation, then we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
Salvation is a gift of grace, not a reward we earn. Our hope must rest in Christ and His finished work, not in our own perfection. 🙏
Molte religioni sono la scusa per permettere ufficialmente all'uomo di uccidere , torturare , sfruttare altri esseri viventi , umani e non umani , senza dover fare ammenda o avere un peso sulla coscienza. È una ipocrisia sociale.
Extremely arrogant judgemental and self righteous. It’s funny the whole boasting about knowing the proper Protestant theology. Ps. The Catholic Church gave you that bible. Yet Protestantism removed books based on what ? Who founded Calvinism ?
Are you saying that YOUR own trust in Jesus' works will save you?
That sounds like you have to DO something: You won't be saved unless YOU decide to trust, unless YOU accept Jesus.
Trusting and eciding and accepting are things you have to do. In other words, those are the "works" you say are necessary. Right?
*God* gave us the Bible through the Reformation, which the Catholic "church" fought tooth and nail.
😂
Jesus left the church
Regenerative faith is a change of the inner nature brought about by God, not a work the person does to believe.
So you don't have to make a decision? It's all robotic?
The head of the church is Jesus Christ, not the Pope.
And he promised the gates of hell will not prevail.
Yet don’t really become or discover real Christian until 1500s?
Read the scriptures yourself without some self righteousness formula.
There's a fair distinction buried here: whether the average Catholic's answer reflects official teaching or popular piety, since Rome's own position claims even those works are grace-enabled rather than self-generated. Which is the stronger critique — the doctrine as formally defined, or the lived theology of people in the pews?
No one is saved, it’s all bullshit - snap out of it folks. Free your mind - there is no spoon……
Have you heard and understood the Gospel and rejected it?
Give me the TLDR of the gospel in your own mind please.
How do you think that Christians escape hell?
Sounds like you misunderstand Catholics. I recommend you watch some videos by “Jesusandwhatnot” on YouTube
Where am I misunderstanding?
My brother in Christ, for 1600 years to be Christian was to be Catholic. Do you think God allowed ALL of those people to be wrong, only for some guy named Martin Luther to come around and make things correct? Come on now, it’s ridiculous.
No.
I think many (perhaps most?) Roman Catholics have real sense of loyalty to the church while also (without realizing the anathema) believe that Christ's death on the cross was sufficient to pay for their sins, therefore ending up in heaven.
Man has a will that is in bondage to sink; we freely choose sin accordng to our nature.
It is not until our nature is regenerated by God that we can (gratefully) choose Jesus Christ as our savior.
Nobody seeks God, not even one. The Father must draw His elect people into the Son by the Spirit. That's how gone we were.
The reformation is not a new religion, it is the recovery of the Gospel and the faith of the apostles.
(Therefore, the gates of hell have not prevailed)
Laser you obviously know myths and legends about the Catholic Church- and you believe that your work of having the right formula saves… maybe actually do your own research.
Jesus saves. The cross saves. Salvation happens IN TIME, through people,. It’s not some magic formula. The church is a living body in history. You’ve got a kindergarten idea of the ‘big bad’ Catholic Church homie.
Funny. If a Catholic or anyone goes to Catholic mass every day. 30 minutes. They will hear so muucy more of the actual bible than any non-catholic service …
based on a verse. A Ted talk and a band.
What % of the laity know Latin and for what % of the life of the RC church has the mass been in English?
If my knowledge of Rome is in err, then provide specific admonishment.
being saved is a requisite for doing good things as Catholic. If you really have faith in God and Jesus and you feel saved, then you can act as a son of God, someone who dont need to demostrate nothing to the world, someone that dont need to save himself, someone that can give his life for God and his brothers and someone who is happy to live the life God has thinked for hime. A Saint.
Dude that’s on you…
I don't believe it is in err.
You are the one claiming that I "obviously know myths and legends" without specifying anything.
We are saved by Gods grace period - yet we must cooperate, seek salvation, work with God,, we aren’t puppets and can lose our salvation by rejecting it. Again you seem to be relying on your own work of non biblical theological formula.
1. Roman Catholics do not believe that you are saved and then produce fruit, but that faith and works are both required, as well as maintaining standing at the time of death, in order to be saved.
2. Those who are saved by faith *do* produce fruit (with the help of the Spirit) out of pure love and gratefulness to their Lord.
3. Believers *do* want to display the glory of God to the world, and *do* demonstrate to the world their obedience as instrumental means of God.
Mankind is not a puppet of God but a creature with a fallen nature who freely chooses sin.
God rescues a people to Himself for His own purposes, not because of anything good in them.
Everybody God passes up is going to hell and God cannot be blamed for refusing to rescue all sinners who willingly rebel against Him.
Those who are saved are *granted* salvation by God. They are not obtaining salvation by following a careful procedural blueprint determined by Rome, but because God has regenerated the nature of the people whom He had set aside before time for His own purposes and glory (not because they could earn it).
Rome even acknowledges that God must grant the cooperation they imagine is needed for salvation, and therefore that gift of cooperation is not provided evenly or based on performance, but because God Himself has set aside a people for Himself.
You understand that even under Rome's framework that God must gift the cooperation needed to ultimately qualify for salvation? That even the choice to cooperate with grace must be provided by the grace of God? And that God does not provide this grace based on performance but based on His own sovereign purpose?
Why does God gift some Rome Catholics enough cooperation to enter heaven while passing over others, leaving them to be (rightfully) condemned to hell?
Because salvation is a work of God alone, and zero credit is owed to the creature. None.
This is accurate. And by the way this is not what official Catholic Church doctrine teaches, but it IS what the average Catholic believes.
View quoted note →The key is that you started it by saying “the average Catholic”
A Catholic theologian will not say what your post says, but the average Catholic will.
How do you know?
A Calvinist has entered the chat
Here for the comments
Your system is made up… there’s why Jesus left an authority. The church. Bishops. A hierarchy.
Rome's own framework holds that cooperation with grace is itself a gift of grace that God freely gives per His own purposes (not because sinners have earned it).
Therefor, Rome's doctrine points towards election. God's is Sovereign. God's will is free. Mankind's will is under bondage to sin, requiring God's action at every step of salvation.
Where in Scripture did Jesus establish the Roman authority over believers? Where did the Roman church obtain the authority to give continued relevation beyond God's Word?
My favorite Calvinist is Jesus Christ:
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:65 No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.
John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit.
Matthew 11:27 No one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Election does not equal Calvinism
There are thousands of incompatible god claims made from every civilization on Earth for 10,000 plus years. Then there was a field that made it possible to land shit on another planet and drive that fucking rover with a joystick in Houston. Just open you eyes and verify- don’t trust.
Ah yes. Richard Dawkins logic. That's the guy that thinks AI programs are sentient.
But how did we get here? Where did it all begin?
Thousands of god claims from every civilization maybe because it’s innate in us to know there must be a God
