@Wisp #artstr

if the dollar keep climb up and the geo politcal tension keep rising , some country will go bancrupt

Bitcoin will not meaningfully appreciate in relative value if we continue to think the path forward is pricing it in fiat rather than measuring it in joules.

No

Every day the dollar loses a little more of its ability to express value coherently. The further Bitcoin develops, the less capable fiat becomes of describing it. A unit that cannot conserve value cannot ultimately explain a system built on conservation. The greatest folly is looking backward through the assumptions of the old system to understand the system replacing it. The reference frame itself is collapsing. The ruler is breaking while insisting it can still measure. A depreciating unit cannot indefinitely explain an appreciating truth. Eventually the measurement fails before the object being measured. Joules, not fiat my friend. Force the world to see fiat cannot conserve energy.

I'm not interested in forcing anyone to do anything, nor do I seek friends who are.

I’m not interested in forcing anyone either. If Bitcoin is energy, then its gravity (force) will be acknowledged without coercion. Truth has a way of revealing itself through time. We can use knowledge, logic, mathematics, and science to accelerate our understanding of what is emerging from Bitcoin. Understanding serves the greater good. I’m simply here to speak what I believe is true and defend the integrity of the system to the best of my ability. If Bitcoin is fundamentally a proof-of-work system, then it should be understood through work. Work is measured in joules, not dollars. It shouldn’t be controversial to say that reasoning about Bitcoin through the lens of fiat is increasingly problematic. The entire purpose of Bitcoin was to create an alternative system precisely because fiat lacks the properties Bitcoin was designed to preserve. If Bitcoin is grounded in energy, conservation, and proof of work, then eventually it must be understood on those terms. Reality tends to reward accurate descriptions of itself over time.

"should and "shouldn't" represent the veiled desire to force others to change their perspectives. It is possible that you have a valid point, but I haven't been presented with a reason to consider what it might be. In other words I'm bored and irritated.

I will summarize what I see as your current argument: Bitcoin will not increase in purchasing power until we stop measuring it in fiat and measure it in joules instead. Is that correct?

@Jack K is making points about the spirit and God, the true causes of the world and Bitcoin. @Sourcenode is making points (at least in this chain) about materiality (fiat price) and the world (current events). @Sourcenode I’m sure Jack knows it’s possible Bitcoin could rocket to $150k “overnight” with just the right sequence of macro factors. To put it more in your language here, I think he’s saying that in order for it to reach the $50m+ btc price the math works out to (when you divide current economic value by 21m) - there is going to need to be a real (re)volution (and rebirth) of spirit that ushers in that increased material global wellbeing that Bitcoin has the potential to manifest. In order to be reborn in the spirit, we must accept Christ as the Son of God the Father. We must accept the Gospels (i.e. the Word of God) and Bitcoin as the greatest instruments to discern truth and verify reality for ourselves.

“Should” and “shouldn’t” are also colloquially used terms to describe the relative probability of something given a logical premise. “A coin flipped should have a 50/50 chance of heads vs. tails”. @Jack K wasn’t telling you what you should believe here, and I’m not trying to be pedantic @Sourcenode, trying to help clarify concepts for you here.

I believe @Jack K is right @Sourcenode. Measuring bitcoin in fiat will become increasingly problematic. But that doesn’t mean that a majority global population that is essentially fast asleep can’t push the bitcoin price higher in the short term. In fact, I think it probably will.

Re: $50m per coin scenario- would be in relative purchasing power of course, at that point dollars don’t exist, and bitcoin is measured in joules. @Jack K @Sourcenode

Can someone tell me what 1BTC equals in joules? I suspect not because electricity has different pricing in different areas.

Depends on the block height you choose to measure currently due to supply schedule. At terminal supply (Block 6,930,000 onward), joules per satoshi becomes invariant.

I've had some time to think about this and I will not resort to arguing on the internet because it does not benefit me, but I do want to express some thoughts about this exchange. Firstly, I have often been an advocate for measuring bitcoin in things other than dollars. Nothing in my OP stated that I was measuring in fiat. I generally measure bitcoin in gold. Last I checked it was around 14oz. Every market good holds relative value to every other good; this is a fundamental axiom of austrian economics. As a result, it doesn't matter what one uses to price bitcoin as long as it works for that person. From my perspective one of the biggest issues slowing bitcoin adoption today is that normies do not care or do not understand it. Complex theories about quantum physics, the nature of time, and measuring bitcoin in vibrating electrons might be fun or interesting, but I am not convinced that they are helpful in any material sense. Thought experiments (as contrasted from empirical experiments) like this one seem likely to confuse people and move them further from adoption. Maybe you don't care about adoption, but that is my goal. If we have different goals that's fine. If your goal is also adoption, it's important to make bitcoin more accessable for those who want to learn about it and use it. For example, if the question "How much is 1BTC in joules?" cannot be answered with a round number, which can then be converted into USD, EUR, gold, rent, or strawberries then I don't see any value in discussing it. Bitcoiners have developed a noticable tendency towards failing to meet people where they are at. Instead they often get hyperfixated on topics which don't matter to a vast majority of the working world. Maybe what you are saying is useful to someone, but frankly, the more we talk, the more I doubt that is the case. This is the end of my engagement with this topic over nostr. If we meet face to face one day maybe we can continue the conversation. I wish you all the best 🤙

“You strain out a gnat, but swallow a camel.” - Matthew 23:24

🫡 Likewise on adoption. Knowledge of Bitcoin precedes adoption. Nobody in the space understands Bitcoin (myself included), nor what money is. Until we reach objective consensus, I expect little adoption and a mediocre relative value appreciation. The Bitcoiner precedes the Bitcoin. Knowledge is the protocol. Cheers!

Can you help me understand how you see this verse relating to what I said?

Yes, I will do my best. First though I will quote another verse from Matthew (6:24), I know @Jack K appreciates this one too - “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” In many senses, Life is binary, we can make one choice, or the other. I can seek to glorify God, for the salvation of mankind; or I can seek to glorify the world (myself, family, friends, institutions, physical assets, etc). I can’t do both at the same time though. Like @Jack K says, the transaction cannot be both spent and unspent simultaneously. So with regard to the Matt 23:24 verse quoted, I did so because your disposition in this conversation (and I will concede that you are the OP so I understand you could feel I am being unnecessarily inflammatory, though I pray and discuss here with pure intention for a good faith conversation) to me has felt prone to pedantry (your “should vs shouldn’t” reply, your “force” reply). I don’t disagree on the surface with either of those statements, but I know that you are missing Jack’s bigger point, and I witness you lost in the world of physical things and inherited belief structures (in this conversation). I understand what you are saying, and I agree that Bitcoin’s relative value compared to other assets (i.e. in a worldly, practical sense) is of course incredibly causative to any relative purchasing power appreciation - that’s a pretty obvious, low-hanging fruit, don’t you agree? What @Jack K is pointing to is a new way to measure the causative forces that are below what we can purely perceive in the physical world. Bitcoin is the first physical object which instantiates this higher order logic in clear mathematical form. So yes, it’s definitely esoteric and won’t resonate with most people. If it did resonate with most people right now, what he’s saying wouldn’t be revolutionary or revelatory. Only those who are ready to see it will, and from there will be drawn into greater mysteries which purify humanity’s current condition (i.e. selfishness, attachment to the world) and pave the way for Bitcoin to be a cornerstone of the New Earth our hearts know is possible (i.e. bitcoin catalyzing spiritual evolution). I love a lot of the stuff that you post, and you strike me as an incredibly “awake”, intelligent and loving individual. I believe one day you will understand what we mean here. “One of the fundamental lessons sales people learn is not to attack competitors or oposition, but rather to highlight the advantages of their offering.” Lashing out is a sign of immaturity, inferiority, or both.” We all walk this path together, even if routes diverge. In fact the divergence and apparent contradictions (and their subsequent reconciliation) is the gate into the deeper layers of spiritual experience. May God continue to bless, guide and protect you brother. May Peace be upon you now, and forever more. 🤍✝️👁️🕊️🌱🔮

I appreciate your positive intentions here, but it appears to me that by putting bitcoin at the center of one's ideological framework means participating in the very thing condemned by Matthew 6:24. Bitcoin is no more physical than microsoft windows. It's just a tool.