Nostr is deceptively tricky to understand. It is not hard, but the issue is that odds are that you think you get it, whilst you actually dont. To be clear, it took me a while to get it right in my head, and that is as someone who has been thinking about protocols and distributed compute crap long before Nostr was a thing, and was in direct conversation with the jungle spirit. I am superduperultramegaturbo smart (as well as funny and humble), so i am not calling anyone stupid here.
People stumble over the relay part.
Both these things apply to Nostr:
A: The specific relay does not matter;
B: The specific relay is all that matters.
Using signatures to tamperproof (1) the data, as well as a basic set of queries and indexing (2), gives us:
1: the event is the event, regardless where it came from, so it could be any relay.
2: every clients should work with any relay; any relay should work with any client.
But! Thats just this abstract technical substrate of interoperability. Its NIP-01, something that fits on a hand full of pages, and cant be expected to be the answer to all the things. Any real questions and issues that pop up when creating for an usecase needs more than that. And in large part, thas answer lies with the relays.
Where data is stored; who can access it and why? All these questions lead us to it mattering a lot what the specific relay is. A relay is someones computer, its their physical machine. They own it, they controll it, they decide who can enter, what they can leave behind and for how long, and what it hands back to you.
It matters that its the left handed one-eyed neo-eco-monarchist frog enthousiast relay; and you right handed people are not welcome. It matters what someones inbox relay is, if you want to make sure that person sees you post. It matters what a relays retention policy is if you want to keep your stuff around for a long time.
In theory things are interoperable and interchangeable; but in practice they are all individual servers, owned by different people, run for different reasons, with varying purposes.
And that was always at the core of the matter; a 'platform' is a specific server, run by specifc people. And we were forced into a tug-of-war between all of us (be that users, advertisers or governments), because we were all silo'd and stuck on that 1 computer, because we lose sight of eachother the moment we are not all together on that 1 computer.
Nostr does not magically make it not someone's computer, with the associated rights, responsibilities and privileges that come allong with it being their computer. All Nostr does is put all those servers on an interoperable substrate such that we can freely associate without an outside party comming in between, in a way we won't lose sight of eachother and freedom to choose and use whatever app/client/software we want.
The archipelago of private islands, the waters are open, pick your ship, chose your destiny.
https://video.nostr.build/f0310fcd58711e8d0a7ac76f90305464e88e7760c90d24ef446ab65d41f3136f.mp4
Nostr.
Clip is from:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lmE_ZLBVjU
By:
nostr:nprofile1qythwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnsd9hxw6m90yh8s7t6qqs9zr4rh4t0ncpquzhpgujhkaeet0qe7tc00wtpygxwxkfxhus6mnc8v6xl6
Replies (22)
That is why the pear stack matters (a.k.a hyper* stack) (a.k.a dat stack).
Its not compatible with nostr but rebuilding nostr as a concwpt on top of it will create nostr on steroids. More through put with less issues.
At some point we will have to do it 🙂
Huge. Nice work!
"The archipelago of private islands, the waters are open, pick your ship, chose your destiny."
OK, but how?
Noobs don't know shit about fuck.
How are we supposed to select a relay?
Why do I have a list of relays if I only need one?
NOSTR is only nice for people who are supercoders.
I'm pretty resigned to the idea that there will never be a day where I use NOSTR and I am not disappointed by something I don't know how to deal with including technical glitches and my own inability to work around issues that other, more experienced, more capable users can do with their eyes closed.
I wish I could be inspired by your words.
It's nice in theory but when the rubber meets the road, I get glitches and frustration.
I look forward to the day when there's a "just make it fucking work" option for noobs.
Where did you get the idea you just need 1 relay? Do you also just use 1 website on the internet?
The whole relay thing just requires people to build intuition around it, and the first people are need to do so are developers. For the most part, client developers either fucked up the relay part (Damus in the beginning, and Primal to this day), or they shoved it into the background.
Its only more recently that developers more broadly are figuring it out and are experimenting and exploring the possibilities. Not just in functionality but also in how they present it to the user.
I don't think this intuition out of reach for the normie, i don't see why it would be; its very analoge actually and maps well to the physical world in many instances. The same goes for keypairs actually.
In any event, Nostr does in fact introduce a new paradigm, and we are just figuring out what the implications are as we go along. As such i am patient and not too worried at this stage. As long as i see progress i remain hopefull we 'get there'.
What client do you use, and have you tried nostr:npub1yzvxlwp7wawed5vgefwfmugvumtp8c8t0etk3g8sky4n0ndvyxesnxrf8q ?
First stop? Freedom. Next stop? Money. Back to selective censorship.
right now, having one build one's own relay or blossom server is not easy, but over time, as the developer community grows more and there more people who also want to have their own relays, surely in the future anyone will be able to build their relays and servers in a simpler way than is barely possible today.
I will say that because I wanted to build my own relays, I ended up learning to use postgresql, javascript, to use the terminal more and understand that once you open an ssh port, that is where one should take cybersecurity seriously. I still can't put together a relay, but learning new languages I feel was worth it.
the problem is that even today there are no tutorials so that a person can build their relays or servers, since for that one must use the terminal apart from what Microsoft has just done with Windows 11, it is most likely that the Windows users will no longer be able to run their own relays or servers due to how Microsoft disabled localhost so now the only option to do that is for one to switch to Linux.
"People stumble over the relay part.
Both these things apply to Nostr:
A: The specific relay does not matter;
B: The specific relay is all that matters."
That part is somewhat ambiguously suggestive that a single relay would be sufficient.
"The whole relay thing just requires people to build intuition around it"
Absolutely fucking not. Intuition is several steps down the line. You're putting WAY too much on a normie noob with that. No. Super detailed tech shit is NOT an intuition. It is knowledge based, end of story.
"Its only more recently that developers more broadly are figuring it out and are experimenting and exploring the possibilities. Not just in functionality but also in how they present it to the user."
Agreed and they suck at figuring it out because they don't normie test their stuff because that's costly and frustrating to have to deal with normies and cater to normie levels of understanding. Some devs are really good about this but they are few and far between. Most devs don't even like people. That's why they decided to spend all of their time with computers instead of people. Most devs are severely out of touch with normies...SEVERELY.
"I don't think this intuition out of reach for the normie, i don't see why it would be;"
This is the problem. Out of touch. This is a projection. You've never tested this notion of yours with a normie pulled at random from the sidewalk or the McDonald's drive through.
What you're not understanding is that we don't even know how to begin to manage, select, switch, etc. relays. We don't even know where to turn for help because different people tell us different things. It's a fucking shitshow.
NOSTR needs a "just make it fucking work, I'm a fucking noob" option.
I don't see it happening until the implementation of NIPs across NOSTR clients becomes more organized. Right now, the whole thing is a disorganized shitshow. I'll probably fall down dead the day that there's a NOSTR client that works across platforms without random glitches every other day that isn't a pain in the ass to get set up on.
This is never going to take off. Normies will not come here. It's too hard and the people who have the ability to make it easier are out of touch with the Normie conception of "too hard".
As far as i see it you are complaining the web is never going to take off because you are required to type in h t t p : / / W W W dot, in front of every website url you want to visit.
Normal people, are doing everyday things, that are far more complex than understanding location.
What? Are 'normal users' confused you go to the pharmacy to buy medicine, and to the bakery to buy bread? And there are all these different bakeries, how is a normal person supposed to know and understand which one he should go to, and then there are the opening times. And then sometimes, the shop is closed for some reason, and then the user is just supposed to go to a different shop?????
Shopping is never going to take off, its too confusing for normal people, you cant expect them to understand all these things.
Sending letters? Are you crazy??? How many stamps do i need? Where do i put them?? The adress, i need to write that down? How do i even know the adress of the person i want to send a letter. And i have to put the letter in the correct box? This is insaine, no normal users is ever going to send letters, the postoffice is out of touch!!!
Seriously, relax, in the grand scheme of things, all we are doing here (be that bitcoin and now Nostr, both residing in this new crypto paradigm), is a new way of doing things. But there is nothing about this stuff that makes it impossible for the everyday person to build comprehension. I am not projecting, i am just further allong and see how its not much different in terms of complexity of systems we were completely accustomed to in the past.
Stretch your timelines friend, this a process over generations, i.e. decades not years. And the way you are screaming makes me think you are on a months timeline.
"Both these things apply to Nostr:
A: The specific relay does not matter;
B: The specific relay is all that matters."
😄
nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzqh4yvjqytwcl7g3x2hwaxmndemwugdvscfsfp3yxhmecaazsmfdaqqsgnyzctjwpqkgqyvp2tl0megdf5dvrfgqgug6u83k396y0d2uj3qgg2fesd
"Nostr's answer is- I don't care, you figure it out." 🤣
That is why the pear stack matters (a.k.a hyper* stack) (a.k.a dat stack).
https://docs.pears.com
Its not compatible with nostr but rebuilding nostr as a concept on top of it will create nostr on steroids. More throughput with less issues.
At some point we will have to do it 🙂
Those relay issues are solved, because for any particular peer, there is a way to discover all relays that have the data, so you dont have to follow specific relays. ypu can find them on demand.
nostr:nevent1qqsgnyzctjwpqkgqyvp2tl0megdf5dvrfgqgug6u83k396y0d2uj3qgpzemhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgq3qt6jxfqz9hv0lygn9thwndekuahwyxkgvycyscjrtauuw73gd5k7sxpqqqqqqz4vpzj9
Nostr however opted for censorship resistance via interchangeability, not disintermediation, because p2p is impractical.
Being autodidactic is a gift 🤷
"over generations" .... Nostr isn't even quantum resistant. Shor's destroys nostr in it's entirety. Not even Grover's and quadratic speedup but the lowest hanging Shor's fruit. Every public key is public! The lower bound for Shor's is 1,700 logical qbits. We're at 24 now, possibly 48. Within 1 generation we will be at the lower bound, if not within 10 years. (If not within 5 years.)
Time to hard fork and start over. A lot of good stuff can be ported over. But this Nostr we have now, there is no chance for it on a technical level, to say nothing of user adoption and all that.
This is 2025. You just cannot build a new protocol on a Shor's un-hardened curve with all the public keys happily public and zero scope for curve migration, it's insanity.
Best bit 😂
Yeah there’s not much lead time to become quantum resistant before potential quantum threats can materialise.
I’m new to nostr.. I kind of just assumed there’d be a semi orderly scramble to get the network defended.
Coming from btc, it can take a fair while to get consensus and then develop, and then roll out trial period, and then mass adoption.. by the time you get from the first debate to the mass adoption, you’re running critically close to a “quantum threat arriving in 5 years” scenario..
Hopefully btc, nostr and any other community driven network can get itself covered and converted with time to breathe rather than a wild rush near the end.
Gotta admit I could put my quantum knowledge on a single a4 page though.. Do you recommend any resources to help understand the technical threat to nostr?
Bitcoin is also in a bind but has the following on its side:
-The greatest damage to bitcoin requires messing with SHA-256 (not scep256k1), which requires grover’s algo, which is way harder to make useful
-For scep256k1 (shor’s algo, lowest hanging quantum fruit) there is some scope to migrate curves
-Only about 30% of scep256k1 public keys are known (if unknown that provides some protection)
Nostr is in a hopeless situation:
- Everything is scep256k1 (where something else like AES-256-CBC is used scep256k1 is still the weakest link in the dependency)
- Virtually all public keys are known, virtually all events are easily retrieveable
- There is zero scope to migrate curves (despite some nonsense suggestions to the contrary)
Is there anyone offering Relay as a Service? #asknostr
nostr:nprofile1qqsw5t3us9xs3gmclzjm37hvk2yy6pv9t96utjjttsj794hexc5x79qpp4mhxue69uhkummn9ekx7mqpz4mhxue69uhk2er9dchxummnw3ezumrpdejq6l4eqj nostr:nprofile1qqs9df4h2deu3aae83fmet5xmrlm4w5l9gdnsy3q2n7dklem7ezmwfcpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhsz3rhwvaz7tekd3jks6rev3ehyargv9nk66tnxe6h2dn5w43kuerk0fmnwcm4vfc8z6mgweu8j7fhdfhkjmmrxs6k66mnwg6x2cty9ehku6t0dchs44rmat possible? #asknostr
Relay.tools , nosflare.com ... I've seen other references to things being packaged for umbrel, but I don't think its ready.
