Replies (84)
I point out legitimate problems with Bitcoin and Bitcoin maximalism.
if you have an intelligent retort to what I said, I'm interested to hear it.
but "STFU about monero" is definitely NOT that.
nah, normies dont care about privacy because they think the legacy system will allow them to be wealthy.
What are the legitimate problems with bitcoin and bitcoin maximalism and I will attempt to give you an intelligent retort
as if you weren't already kneejerk identifying as "monero troll" "LLMs" and "alt npubs" to say just fuck off.
go find what I said *yourself* and respond to *that* asshole.
not your fucking imaginings about who I am.
good luck with your kids jfc
Good chat sir!
Stay humble and stack sats 🫡
That was just you bringing up monero to beat your chest and have those feel-good tribal feels
like a child
Again what are the problems with bitcoin and bitcoin maximalists?
How do you even define a bitcoin maxi?
Some say that you are not a maxi unless everything you own is bitcoin which is certainly not me.
I work for a fiat corp, get paid in fiat, spend fiat (bitcoin when I can) and treat bitcoin as my primary savings asset. I own other assets like my home and some stonks in a 401k (which I regret not converting to bitcoin). I just reject all things in crypto that are not bitcoin, think the stonk market is a scam and have no interest holding a shiny rock
Is bitcoin perfect? Absolutely not but it is the best money humans have ever encountered/discovered/created and it will continue to get better as it continues to mature
this is what I said, you unbelievable knob.
idgaf about your imaginings.
the conversation was about PoW.
Hanshan
Meanwhile bitcoin maxis are betting they can hodl into being the new 1% in 10 yrs
sad 😬
View quoted note →
and
@CraftCanna you were absolutely full of shit today also
Someone who makes medicine for people should do better.
Am I missing something here? Your reply is not pointing out a legitimate issue with bitcoin or bitcoin maxis
It is trolling someone for making a point about grifters in the space that he is calling out
Just because you don’t like or agree with what we say does not mean we are full of shit ha
I think you would benefit from some of
@CraftCanna’s medicine!
Shit is the best weed I have ever smoked so may want to get past your maxi hate and make a purchase
ok
as if there was any reason for me to pay for weed
and you and he are absolutely as full of shit as
@Jordan S and
@goatmeal
don't think that there's any difference 😆
Meyer you're a fag. Come on man. You're completely out of your depth in these silly arguments and you embarrass yourself consistently.
He’s so hurt today even though dude lives for these stupid little skirmishes and attempts to provoke them daily 😂 stop wasting your time doing this hanshan it’s sad to see
😘
Good points! 😘
already covered this today
well theyre not wrong that you irrationally hate on Bitcoin 😂
No, I hate the Fiat maxi culture that has taken over Bitcoin.
i get that
but that's not these two guys.
they legit think that Bitcoin is inevitable and that WE are creating a problem where there isnt one.
Do not think bitcoin is inevitable…
Up to bitcoiners to ensure it wins and becomes the globally adopted money.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.
mister_monster
Alright. Let me take a deep breath real quick.
So, miners are rewarded for securing the network. If they're not, they don't do it.
In bitcoin, they're rewarded by the block subsidy, the coinbase transactions, and by the transaction fees of people moving money around. I'm going to call these "users" as opposed to holders, which are also users but I'll distinguish between them in that way.
The block subsidy is like a tax on all holders and users in the network, just as monetary inflation (which I refer to as "debasement" because that's what it is) is a hidden tax on all of us who work for and buy things with fiat.
Holders benefit from the security of the network. That is bitcoins entire value proposition, that's what gives it value, that it is infeasible for anyone to just steal your money without tying you up first. A coin with a supply of 1 and no security is valueless. Scarcity isn't the end all be all of value, as you can see from countless other supply capped altcoins, other considerations are, demand being the big one, but none of that matters if you can wake up to your money gone. The security of bitcoin is it's primary value proposition.
Network security is a commons in game theory parlance, to the bitcoin network, and a situation where some group can benefit from the commons without contributing to it leads to what is called a tragedy of the commons. Those people in game theory parlance are called "free riders", they benefit from it without any cost incurred to them, and for the commons to continue to exist, the cost must be incurred by someone else. That someone else in bitcoin is the users, those actually sending bitcoin and paying transaction fees.
There's a block subsidy right now in bitcoin, but since the supply cap is known, we can treat that yet to be issued subsidy as existing and just not being spent yet. It is "priced in" as you might say. It can be treated as if it already exists, just like satoshis coins can be treated as if they don't exist. Consider your share of the debasement via the block subsidy paid, consider your share of bitcoin as being out of a total supply of (slightly under) 21 million coins, that's what most people do anyway.
So what happens is, there's an incentive built into this game theoretical system that is bitcoin, where people are incentivized to hold and not to spend. They benefit from the security paid for by those who have to spend, and their wealth is secured for free. So as time goes on, more people do this. The more people that do this, the more users have to pay to spend money, the more pressure they feel to just hodl and spend something else, and so on. It has a compounding effect.
The end result of this is of course, a world where nobody or almost nobody spends bitcoin on chain, and where miners have to reduce cost and therefore security. And as security goes down, so does the value of the network, and therefore so does the value of your bitcoin holdings.
A solution to this is a tax on holdings. But that's messy, you need a way to just take money from people when mining a block, keeping track of everything and knowing what everyone has.
A simpler way to do this is to just create some press determined number of new coins every block. It taxes everyone equally in proportion to their holdings, everyone pays for security of their wealth in exact proportion to the benefit they derive from the security of the network. Simple, elegant, problem solved, as long as this money only goes to miners and nobody else.
This could be done on any number of schemes. You can do it on a geometric scale, 2% or 3% as central banks do (even though they don't need it to pay for security. They're just scammers), or you can do it on a linear scale, like Monero does with a set per block emission number that we call a tail emission. I could go into the reasons why this is optimal even though on the surface it may not appear to be viable long term as opposed to geometric debasement, but that's a whole separate thing.
Do you see it? It's not about "the miners have to be paid", it's about who pays the miners and who benefits from mining. The two have to be one and the same, and in proportion to their benefit, or any network is doomed to fail. Incentives are outcomes, always, with anything social in nature.
View quoted note →
then you shouldn't mind critisism like "maxis want to be the new 1% without PoW"
which is what triggered you so badly and kicked off the shit-slinging
The original post was criticizing getting bitcoin without POW and earning it. You mocked it
We believe that by staying humble and stacking sats we can build wealth and increase our purchasing power over time. If that means we end up in the 1% I won’t complain
I agreen with the OP and was adding an additional critisism of my own
the "mocking" is all in your own head
Fair enough and I apologize
You do like to shill monero a lot though
Im curious too.
Lots words to just ask about the security budget question?
Biggest piece of FUD out there and propagated by shitcoiners that had incentives to pump their shitcoin
Nobody has any idea what the future holds for miners but they are taking the risk to invest capital in equipment and procure energy to secure the network today and hashrate or “security” of the network is at all time high despite the diminishing block reward.
I personally think a fee market will develop and not everyone will be transacting on chain. Most will be using bitcoin through intermediaries and on 2nd or 3rd layers.
yeah ok
you didn't understand his point, which is that Bitcoin has a well-understood game theory problem
but whatever, I certainly have not gotten the feeling youre interested in discussion of the subtle design points 😂
Well-understood game theory “problem” is a comical thing to state and believe in ha
Game theory seems to be working just fine. Hashrate at all time highs and bitcoin adoption continuing to grow
ok 👍
if you're interested in taking it a little deeper I suggest reading about the free-rider problem
The Free Rider Problem (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
From Gemini:
Bitcoin's mechanism, primarily using proof-of-work, solves the free-rider problem by aligning individual self-interest with the maintenance of the public good (the secure, decentralized transaction ledger) through a built-in incentive system.
Explicit Cost for Benefit: Unlike a traditional public good where one can benefit without contributing, participation in the Bitcoin network requires an explicit contribution of resources (computational power for mining) to gain any benefit.
Monetary Incentives: Miners expend significant computing power to verify transactions and secure the network. In return, they are rewarded with a block reward (newly created bitcoins) and transaction fees. This ensures that only those who contribute to the network's security are compensated.
Excludability of Rewards: The block reward and transaction fees are not non-excludable public goods; they are captured by the specific miner who successfully solves the computational puzzle first. Non-contributors (non-miners) cannot access these rewards.
System Integrity: The entire system is designed such that acting honestly (contributing computational power to verify legitimate transactions) is the most profitable strategy for a miner. Attempting to free ride or act maliciously would require an enormous amount of computational power with a high risk of losing their investment (e.g., in a "forking" attack).
In essence, Bitcoin internalizes the cost of providing the public good (a secure, transparent ledger) and structures its incentives so that participants are directly rewarded for their contributions, bypassing the classic market failure associated with free riding.
AI slop
Gemini isn't understanding the point of MM point either
🤣
You don’t like the answer so it is AI slop and it does not understand the point of of the original post
You call the security budget “problem” a well-understood game theory problem and then point to the free-rider problem.
I thought Gemini did a pretty decent job explaining why the free-rider problem is not an actual issue with bitcoin and I told you why I am not overly concerned with the security budget “problem”
its not a question of *miners freeriding.
maybe try actually reading what he wrote.
What am I missing here?
His entire post is just a long winded way of restating the same tired security budget FUD I have heard for years
Is it not a question of what happens to security of the network when the miners are not subsidized by the block reward?
The AI doesn't address AT ALL what he said.
and neither have you.
Bitcoin incentivizes free-riders (hodlers) that control UTXOs but do NOT contribute to the security budget through paying transaction fees.
The security budget is only payed by people actually making transactions on the network. Although hodlers also benefit from it. As MM points out, the security of the network is one of Bitcoins primary features.
So a subset of people pay for that network security and a subset are free-riders.
The definition of the free-rider problem.
First off you call hodlers free-riders and I vehemently reject that notion. Holding is a use case for bitcoin.
If a holder earned bitcoin (either by providing value to someone that paid them in bitcoin or exchanging fiat they earned) and now holds the utxo they did contribute to the network when they paid the transaction fee to move the coin and gain control of that UTXO.
If they want to spend that UTXO they will pay a fee to miners to move that coin to someone else so again they contribute to the network
Good job!
that sounds a lot like your own opinion 👍
I didn't ask a question.
I have an idea what the future holds.
No attempt whatsoever to give an intelligent retort. This is just the talking points of a midwit who doesnt understand what ive said.
You got it all figured out bud! You know the future
Best of luck to ya!
And you can go fuck yourself for calling me a midwit
I understand what you say…it’s complete hypothetical bullshit and you don’t like my response
Hodling by definition is free riding. Holders pay absolutely nothing to guarantee security of the bitcoin network that they benefit from. It's not an insult. Theres no emotional implication. You can vehemently reject it all you want, taking a shit in the river is a use case for the river, that doesnt mean it's long term viable.
You ever heard of business models where you can get a single lifetime subscription for one large payment? They always fail. You know why? Because there are ongoing costs. No matter how big the payment, "pay once use forever" is never, ever viable for a service. Paying the fee to buy the coin and then sitting on it while others pay to keep miners protecting your money is the exact same thing.
I will bet you 10 xmr that bitcoin doesnt see a new all time high in 4 years.
Ok commie! Let’s just redistribute all the wealth in world!
Holding is not free riding so we can agree to disagree.
everything else you state is nonsense in my opinion because I disagree with the underlying basis for your argument
Apparently based on your other post you can predict the future and have it all figured out! Best of luck to ya 🫡
You literally dismissed my shit as shitcoiner fud. Define midwit. You can get mad if you want, if you can't take it dont give it out and if you can't have a conversation dont invite people to one.
Good god. Redistribute? Did I say anything about redistribution?
"We can agree to disagree" lol. You don't comprehend what ive said. that's OK. But you look like a fool arguing like this.
What's the underlying basis of my argument and exactly what do you disagree with about it?
I don’t want your xmr shitcoin 😂
I will bet you 100k sats that bitcoin does see an all time high in 4 years though
Find someway we can actually escrow it and I will make my deposit today
The underlying basis of your argument is that people holding bitcoin are being free-riders which is complete bullshit
Well I can't make the bet in bitcoin because if I'm right it will be worthless crap and I don't want a situation where if you win I owe you gold and if i win you owe me lead. Seriously, read game theory man. You need to do some learning.
How about gold? 1 troy ounce of 999 gold that bitcoin doesnt make a new ATH before Nov 19 2029. To be paid out in xmr or bitcoin, winners choice but denominated in gold. Honor system, if I win and you don't pay you feel like a sleazy subhuman pretender who cares more about your ego than your mind, and if I lose and I don't pay, same.
No that's not the basis. And it is provably true, you dont know what "free rider" means.
Your a conceited asshole
I have no interest in owning a shiny rock that already failed as global money either
Enjoy monero and best of luck getting people in the real world to accept it!
obviously everyone benefits from Bitcoin security 24/7
but only transactors pay the miners.
come on dude
Jesus, now with the name calling. I'm glad I'm not your wife's dad.
You have acted like we are dumb rubes this entire time and before that, you've been smug, all ive done is make my points, you'd rather get mad and insult than talk. Youre going to remember this conversation for the rest of your life, I promise. Hopefully something good comes of that.
Holding is using bitcoin. By not selling holders are restricting supply and making it more of a scarce asset which increases the value of all holders/users
You also continue to ignore the fact that the holder paid the miners to obtain their UTXOs
You are a piece of shit that thinks you know everything. You posted a 1,000 word diatribe of bullshit, asked for my thoughts and then preceded to call me a midwit when you did not like my response downplaying your bullshit FUd
You are a 🤡 that will have fun staying poor whining about bitcoin while trying to shill your privacy shitcoin
Enjoy your life shithead
so yesterday I made a point about people who want increased purchasing power without PoW
and your response was "fuck monero people"
today we make a point about Bitcoins game theory tradeoffs
and your response is again "fuck monero people"
(after not understanding the point, running it through AI and finally having it explained to you)
this is boring.
Good lord I'm a piece of shit now.
You didn't give me your thoughts. Your thoughts were "nu'uhhh". Define midwit.
"Have fun staying poor" lol gotem never fails. Youre a meme.
All resources are scarce to a greater or lesser degree.
Its only Bitcoin maxis who want to call simple possession "using"
and only for Bitcoin.
As in my example, owning an automobile is not "using the car".
and the tx fee is the toll.
(do you know who you're responding to??)
🫡
You already forget that I admitted to misunderstanding your post and apologized.
You and your buddy didn’t like my response to your game theory security budget FUD and I got called a midwit for expressing a reasonable opinion
I try to engage with you guys in good faith but you guys are insufferable trolls so yes fuck all you monero retards on here. Waste of everyone’s time
Nobody wants your monero shitcoin and you clowns whining about how bitcoin is a failure is not going to miraculously change that
The free-rider problem has never been a problem. I don't understand this whenever anyone brings it up. It's just nagging at imaginary abstractions absent of context.
I'm just pointing out that was your reaction both times.
Nobody mentioned monero except you again today.
It was very gracious of you to apologize and I avoided saying mean things today.
But you did basically have exactly the same reaction again.
Not understanding and then hostility.
You called me a shitcoin fudster, arguably more I silting than being called a midwit because I'm calling you ~100 IQ but you're calling me a straight up liar.
You didn't express a reasonable opinion. You didn't express any opinion. You didn't respond to anything I said actually. You just got big mad and threw a hissyfit.
Bro this guy does not understand the conversation we are having. I remember being like this. I'd get defensive instead of shut up and learn. I'm lucky I realized that, so many people never do and they just stop learning for the rest of their lives. I hope this guy realizes it too.
Go fuck yourself
maybe we should be a little more sensitive when the price contracts?
Just because you don't understand it doesnt mean it doesnt make sense.
It is an architectural problem. Are you saying it's just not there, or that it's never going to actually result in failure? There's nothing imaginary about it, incentives are always outcomes.
Lol he just said they benefit the network by making number go up.
But hang about
To steelman the argument
Because this is the first perfectly scarce
money
Does holding and making the money more deflationary, more scarce constitute a benefit for network?
ie, by increasing the purchasing power of the tx fees?
No. This is the same premise that drives shitcoins on ethereum and the like where people "stake" to increase scarcity. It never works because people doing that are not net contributors to anything, actually it's the opposite; they benefit from others creating value by trading in the currency.
To put your point another way:
Increased scarcity may provide increased value to other holders
but it doesn't provide value to the network.
Therefore holders do not contribute and are free-riders.
Is that about right?
You’re still discussing this nonsense?
Holders aren’t free riders. They paid their fee when they took custody of the UTXO and they will need to pay a fee when they need to move that UTXO as some point in the future…
Don't forget, this started because I called him a NGU hypeman subservient to Blockstream's further compromising of their pet project at a developmental and governmental level, using his own words to prove it.
THAT must have hit a nerve. :smile:
nonsense
we reap the benefits of network security 24/7/365
but only pay for it when we make transactions
the rest of the time we are free-riders by definition.
unless you have a transaction in the mempool right now, you are benefiting from Bitcoins network security without paying for it.
"I sent a fee to a miner once bro, I'm helping" is cope.
Keep thinking that holding bitcoin as a savings asset is not “using” the network and you will continue to end up with this retarded concept
It’s almost like you are a Keynesian and buy into the broken window fallacy.
Basically
but isnt driving up scarcity and therefore the purchasing power of the tx fees providing value to the network?
because it helps miners pay for electricity?
or is it just semantics?
You're not driving up scarcity unless you're actually buying, the scarcity you've created is already priced in.
Why hodl? So that *your* purchasing power goes up. But where does that wealth come from that you get? It comes from others purchasing the bitcoin. So, by holding, you're front running others, youre saying "I think this thing is going to be valuable to others in the future and so if I'm right I will be rewarded for my foresight". This is not unethical.
Ultimately, it's those people on boarding that drive the purchasing power up, because your options are 1) buy shit with it, or 2) sell to them. If they offer a premium, youre going to do that if you aren't starving. So those people drive up the profitability for miners, given that the block reward is static. Profitability leads to more competition, increase in hash power to capitalize on that larger margin and the security of the network benefits.
What you actually do by hodling is *reducing liquidity.* this goes both ways. Your lack of liquidity during demand appreciation has a price impact that does benefit miners, but ultimately, since youre siphoning wealth from newcomers, as you should for taking the risk, any quantifiable benefit to the network is negated, and the benefit you see is largely borne by the newcomers, not hodlers. You get more than you give in terms of capital, and you wouldnt do it if that weren't true.
Theres no perpetual motion machine here, there is a law of conservation of capital if you will.