GM. I find it remarkable how much humans can accomplish despite the existence of government. Now imagine a world where government can’t afford to rob you through fiat? ☀️
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Replies (151)
No such thing as a good government
There have been so many...
The more typical scenario is retrenchment and retreat by the regime to control only key transport checkpoints and maybe a natural resource extraction facility or two, and extort monopoly rents from those, while the hinterland returns to local tribal self-governance.
An older and less intrusive form of Statism, at worst, so long as traditional cultural institutions for internal dispute management and collective defense are still around.
I was talking a year or so ago with a former mine manager in Bouganville Island, PNG, where this happened two decades back. Well, he talked, I listened. He's still mad, invested a lot of his own money but treated the locals like slaves and isnt afraid to boast of it
In-your-face assholes are great in that scenario; its bleeding hearts and "economic hitmen" gifting dependency and delusion that people should fear
100% true, but its not the whole picture.
Beiyang China was best China. Killed no more than a few hundred thousand innocent people over two decades.
KMT bodycount hit the millions, CCP the tens of millions before they arrived at systems that allow initiative and investment.
Its nice what they have now, if you're wealthy like my friend in HK. But the failure modes of Statism are really not nice.
Yeah, nah, they fall an order of magnitude short. They made more actual profit from those they killed, though. Three Difficult Years was just so pointless and unnecessary
Truth, Deng's PRC had the longest sustained double-digit annual economic growth in history. (USSR 1950s and 60s is second.)
But anything built on Statism is a disaster waiting to happen. Look at the West...
We can have governance without governors, though.
A majority of humans came to live under nation-states only in c. 1500 AD
A government can derive plenty of revenues through tariffs and then ban the production of certain goods, forcing citizens to pay more for what they need. If they control the ports, that’s not a poorly governed country.
Men are not angels, so lets build a government out of those men that are not angels.
All those screens ..... bleh
You say that like mega-cities and high -speed rail are a good thing.
High-speed rail and automobiles have robbed mankind of the horse-human relationship. It's very sad.
We have cities like that. We showed the world how. The USA invented the skyscraper.
This is a joke right? I don't even have to look at this because free speech zones aren't real and I can go buy an AR right now....
I will agree I too am more of an absolutist, but saying free speech is dead in the US is a fucking retarded take.
Yeah, but my specific examples were of China killing their own people. America hasn't done that at scale like china has/does.
A lot of a roads were built by prisoners using truancy laws.
Sounds like a fucking statist. What checks and balances actually work? The checks and balances have to be the people because the useless piece of paper known as the constitution certainly isn’t checking or balancing anything. All the members of different government branches are bought and compromised. The real checks and balances have to be the people. The people have to be willing to overthrow their rulers when they become tyrannical. And if it comes down to the people, then why have a government to begin with? The only answer is to control and extort you.
Is that necessarily a bad thing? High supply leads to lower costs. My understanding is that China wants to grow their population now. If that’s true, those cheap homes would raise their standard of living
You can buy an AR without a license, fees, background checks etc?
You either have free speech or you don’t. I recall the government pressuring social media pages to censor and take down certain posts. Twitter literally removed Trump lmao no free speech bud
You must have forgotten Covid, the vaccine mandates on children, MK ultra, and other fabricated mass shootings.
Yup, have and can.
Oh so unless you can yell fire in a crowded building you don't have free speech? Twitter is a private company and the case to limit the govts reach to pressure social media was improperly filed. 
I'm an anarchist and don't like our govt but to be argueing china is better than the USA on free speech is quite retarded.
SCOTUSblog
Justices side with Biden over government's influence on social media content moderation
The Supreme Court on Wednesday threw out a lawsuit seeking to limit the government’s ability to communicate with social media companies about...
Ah yes, govt subsidizing empty housing projects that outnumber the population of entire us states is progress. Got it.
Did you miss where I said "scale"? China has killed 10s of millions of its own population, the USA has not done it on that scale. I'm not even arguing that the US murders were unintentional and China's were, just that the scale is higher in china.
"Is that necessarily a bad thing" is killing me.
😂
Who are these people? All these retards I see roaming around that can’t take accountability for anything.
Hey now, who are you calling retards? 🥴
The rule is power
I’m not familiar. Can you elaborate?
Why do we keep quoting dead people who tried to build a system that has clearly failed?
I shouldn’t even say we. Why are you quoting him?
Instead of putting words in my mouth, show me where I said China has better speech.
Your original post is about china. The whole conversation is about china vs the us.
You know they’re subsidized for a fact? Are you even certain these ghost cities exist? Where did you hear about them? Did you verify? Why is it that the world choose to do business with China over the US?
Okay so America is better because it kills non Americans got it. It doesn’t matter if the total is higher as long as it’s not Americans.
Exactly. They will never take accountability. There are no checks and balances in government.
Didn't say that either. America's internal policies are better than China's. Foreign policy is entirely different topic.
Did you not read the article?
Show me where I said China has better speech laws
Well this living person taught you something today which that dead person could not
Okay so you ignore the things you don’t like about America meanwhile you fixate on the bad things that you can’t verify about China. This is called bias. I have issues with all forms of government. The purpose of my post was not to say that China is amazing but to point out, as a reminder, the bullshit lies that this country feeds us. Ignore it if you want. Fuck all governments.
Nope.
If you do it says how many tens of millions of units are empty and that the CCP is the reason for it.
Its called compartmentalization. If a countries internal politics are dog shit, I don't care if they're mother there's on the global stage, governments are supposed to look out for their people at the very least.
Post civil war when the country was expanding and roads were being built the nation had strong truancy laws. Basically loitering was a 6 month prison sentence as soon as someone was released they would immediately be arrested again.
Yes humans are flawed. So his solution is to give flawed humans ultimate power over others? Makes no sense
My proposed solution is to stop supporting and legitimizing monopolies on violence and theft using all these mental gymnastics about checks and balances and other nonsense.
And this is your way of verifying? I can pull up an article that shows tens of millions saved by the covid vaccine. Why should I believe your article and not the other?
That’s where you’re wrong. Governments never have and never will look out for their non consenting “people.”
So do nothing?
They’ll move in and do what?
Make you pay Chinese taxes lol
I’m pretty sure I am one as well. 😎
So they had bs laws intended to extract free labor from people?
I think we’re retarded enough to run a branch of government. 🫡
Not sure how you equated what I said to doing nothing
What’s stopping them from doing that now?
I didn’t, it was framed as a question. So what do we do instead?
The bar is pretty low for running a government. There is practically no standard and no consequence for being bad so yeah
I told you what to do. Scroll up and read it again.
The military operated by retards in the government
😂
Isn’t that the way
lol, I read you said to stop doing things
What is a military?
Possible
You tell me, sounds like you’re looking for a specific answer
Uh huh. Keep going you’re almost there.
End one grift start another
Making assumptions now?
I’m simply using the Socratic method as you often enjoy doing. You can find the answer yourself
The human condition
There it is. What are you confused about?
I am not making any assumptions, I am asking you what your definition of a military is
It is
A tragic comedy
I don’t think I am the confused one 😂 but I acknowledge my retardedness. I am not sure if you have.
You said I’m looking for a specific answer. I never said I was. That makes it an assumption.
I asked you first. If you’re interested in learning a different perspective then answer it. Use the dictionary or whatever you like. If you’re just gonna throw it back at me, when you’ve argued that we need a government with all these nonsensical things, that clearly have failed, then just drop the convo because it’s a waste of time discussing with someone who has already made up his mind.
You have to laugh so you don’t cry
I’m not retarded. Although I am not perfect and am susceptible to error.
If I am learning a different perspective I’d prefer to use the dictionary you have
I’d rather use your dictionary to avoid confusion or disagreements
Doesn't matter if they do or not, that is their priority, their constituents, then external.
I do disagree with your point tho, some city and county governments are decent.
This is Google’s dictionary
Anything that uses force and violence again non consenting individuals is evil. Therefore city and county governments are not decent. You sound like a statist.
Is it impossible to have armed forces without a government?
Ok, then how would I even prove what I'm saying? What is your bar for the evidence since you've made it higher than what I've shown?
This is called moving the goal post.
What is the definition of a government?
You’re still missing the point. China is doing much better than the propaganda machine wants us to believe. That’s it. I’m not arguing it’s good or better than another state. That’s like arguing a shit sandwich is better than a shit sundae. It’s all shit. It’s a reminder to not trust the government or media or any branch of statism. I find that Americans are the most brainwashed people on earth. I’m offering evidence against their irrational beliefs that they are free.
No it’s not. This is a direct response to your statement lmao
A group of individuals that use violence, coercion, and other forceful means to compel others to do what they want with or without consent.
I know I’m joining late, but considering the phrase “Potemkin village” was coined about a similar political party’s actions in a similar part of the world, I don’t see why news about empty cities is unbelievable.
Also, hold yourself to the same standard... Show proof that the supposed empty cities are full.
I don’t really care whether they’re full or empty, I just don’t see why it’s so important to you that you need to set the record straight? Insistence like this smacks of wumao behavior but maybe that’s not real either?
This may be where our dictionaries depart
They used the same word inside the definition. This dictionary definition doesn’t work. Not surprising.
Your definition may match closely with that of an authoritarian government:
There's no taxes in China.
There are several countries we're the USD is the legal tender 
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They're certainly a good thing if you have lots of people. If you are for mass murder and castration than you can change things into a world wide Mayberry again.
True 💯
Workers build everything, government is just the system used to organise people.
Anarchism is a form of government.
But I know you're using government to refer specifically to the state. Just wanted to clarify that.
I'm 100% against income tax and rates.
(Rates are the tax that people usually justify because of muh roads)
These days income tax literally provides nothing, that money gets destroyed to control inflation.
China doesn't even have rates, funnily enough.
They tax their citizens a lot less than the West.
But it's a command economy where the state directs the economy.
It was state policy that created the environment in China for the workers to build all of this.
I do have hope for a better world where people and communities are sovereign and the state doesn't exist. But it's just a utopian dream at the end of the day.
Something to work towards that we'll probably never achieve.
We need high speed rail with horse carriage so people can take their horses over long distances and use the horses for local transport when they arrive.
Seriously though, I fully agree with you.
One of the saddest things about my town is when one of the horse paddocks in town gets sold off to developers to build detached houses with a full acre of lawn each.
Every year I see less and less highschool kids riding around on horses.
less and less land in town to keep horses.
More and more kids who want to learn to ride or keep a horse have to travel out of town via car to see their horses now.
From what I seen most government policies actually made it worse.
People were being kept inside without access to sunlight.
People were being isolated when healthy or left in nursing homes to die alone with stupid loop holes that allowed infected people to create super spreading events.
A few countries handled it well, not here though.
Prison slave labour is the backbone of USA's entire economy.
They used to heavily rely upon prison slave labour to build roads, but these days they use them to staff McDonald's and manufacture stuff in factories
It’s the same. Government imposes authority over you. That’s what it means to be authoritarian.
This is not objectively good or bad
Sweden handled it the best
No further questions?
I think we already established the two distinct dictionaries. We are speaking different languages. Maybe some are narrower? Whether you believe you can or you can’t, you’re right.
The dictionary definition you provided contains the same word in the definition. So the definition is not helpful. What is your definition of government? Clearly I’ve shown you a simple example of the influential power and potential for corruption that government imposes.
A government is how a community organizes power to make collective decisions, maintain order, and provide public services.
Was the entire community involved when the constitution, articles of confederation, and Declaration of Independence were created?
You’re showing me a potential for something I already acknowledged, and there’s a word for that in the dictionary: authoritarianism. The word government by itself is a more generic term, people tend to project personal views and context onto it that says more about the person than the word itself.
The better question is can members of the community choose to get involved?
Speak for yourself my guy. Your definitions of government imply consent when none was given. Do you know what consent means? No community in human history has ever collectively agreed on the establishment of any government anywhere. Some may want it and others don’t. Yet it is still imposed on those who don’t, meaning it is NOT consensual and the community did not collectively agree. There is practically no difference between a “government” and a mafia. The only difference is that a government gives you a political ritual (i.e. voting) and gaslights you into thinking this whole thing is good for you and what you want. Mafias are at least more honest. Coercion and violence have always been necessary to establish any government. Which means that if you believe government is necessary for society to function, then you believe societies require violence and coercion to function. And that further implies you don’t believe in consensual relationships 🤷♂️
You can think boy all day about this subject, but a government-citizen relationship literally cannot be consensual and can never have a collective agreement from everyone to live under its rule.
No. The better question is can “members” choose to opt out freely without violence directed at them. You don’t wanna shop at Walmart? You don’t have to vote and gather majority support for the right to shop somewhere else. That’s freedom. You don’t want to pay taxes for cops? Too bad the community “voted” so you have to obey or you’ll be murdered or thrown in a cage. That’s retarded and tyrannical. This type of violence and reasoning means you have no respect for human life.
I don’t disagree with that sentiment. There are at least 2 views on American government :
(1) The American experience is finished. Game Over.
(2) The American experience is an experiment that is still unfolding. Then game on.
“The experiment of America is new, and it may be delicate.”
-Thomas Jefferson
Your options are fight or flight. If your way of fighting is posting on nostr then 🫡 I see you.
The experiment has failed 
This is the false dilemma or false dichotomy logical fallacy
Yes maybe. I think the next logical question is suppose you’re the American President, what’s the first 3 things you do?
The thing about fearing authoritarianism and power is that everyone’s afraid the next big idea end ups being some weird trade off of the same thing.
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
-Animal Farm
Step down, find a job, stack sats.
That’s actually what George Washington did. I think? But that doesn’t prevent the next guy from stepping in.
Freedom isn’t for cowards. And most are ruled by fear. There is no reason the masses should be afraid of the minority that is government. It really makes no sense.
No disagreement here.
Because you think that the system can be fixed. The system is broken by design. The intentions of the “founders” of this “country” don’t matter. In reality, it’s broken and tyrannical.
Suppose that’s all true. At what point do we go beyond criticizing the thing and do something more to change it?
Before change can happen, you must be aware of the problem. That starts with people who defend false ideas.
Correct. It's not scary to defend the tyrants that enslave you. It's scary to speak out against it. To risk losing friends and becoming ostracized by those who fear change.
Oh I didn’t realize you were recruiting 😂 I think I am going to step down and stack sats.
Yeah maybe, that’s what the new tyrants will want us believing also. That’s actually the first thing they say to you.
You think that stepping down is a cowardly move. That's where we differ. I think stepping down is an act of courage. I don't want to be a hypocrite. You can't fix violence with more violence.
Because of people like you
Yeah this is a common statist argument. If you don't support murderers, someone else will. Not a good argument if you want to be a man of integrity.
I'm not. You said another person will step up and become president. Murders occur under all presidents. It's by design. Therefore you are supporting murderers. If I was president, no matter what policies I enact, someone will disagree and be forced to comply or die.
You lmao
Prey or pray.
Look what happened to my dude Jesus
Your dude jesus who we can't even confirm to have actually existed died at the hands of a government. Ironically, he was pro government standing up to a different government. As soon as he died, a new government was established in his name that committed similar atrocities. Arguably worse atrocities despite his teachings of peace and love. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Do you see the pattern yet or am I wasting my time?
Also another false dichotomy. Learn about logical fallacies.
I see the pattern, do you? My dude stepped down and what happened?
Who stepped down?
He prayed.
Wtf are you talking about? Who? Stepped down or prayed?
Jesus
Stepped down from what? Prayed to himself?
Step away from the smoke. We pray out of fear and sadness. I think.
You’re not making any sense. You went from neutral Socratic questioning to deep ambiguous mysticism lmao pick one
Maybe I am failing at asking my one question, which is how do you prevent the next tyrant overtaking the community?
I heard awareness. Yep agreed. But there’s no architecture there. Jesus had some architecture that withstood the test of time. What else?
What would happen if no one voted for the next election?
I don’t know, what would happen? Trump stays in office?
If half the population didn’t vote, there would be some serious panic imo