Current tentative thoughts on op return. I haven’t decided what I’m going to do with my node yet but I’m starting to understand why core wants to remove the filter. I don’t like spam and bullshit on the blockchain but this is a free market. If people want to pay for it to be there, and it helps miners, then what is the problem? 🤷‍♂️ One of the arguments made on the podcast: People are paying large miners directly to put their spam in the blockchain. This is bad for miner decentralization because small miners don’t get a chance to profit off those fees since they are being filtered out. The op return filter is basically giving large miners guaranteed business and small miners get screwed. This is bad for miner decentralization. I would like to know what the strongest arguments are for removing the op return filter. I don’t care about virtue signaling or any moral arguments. I don’t care what should and shouldn’t be on the blockchain. Tell me why filtering out the spam is best for the security and longevity of the Bitcoin network. As of the writing of this post, 2 of the last 3 mined blocks have about 500 transactions in them. The next upcoming block isn’t even full and mempools look like they’re going to clear. Mining fees are at 1 sat/vbyte. Again I don’t like spam, but isn’t this a profitable way to secure the network when activity is low? Especially with so many people buying ETFs, there is little reason for those retards to use the blockchain.

Replies (23)

The thing that really turned me against the filter was the realization that all the pissing and moaning was about mempool. They are still validating all those transactions and storing them forever as part of the chain. That means the effect for knots runners is only a less accurate mempool. Everything else they say is pissing upwind because they won't, and can't fork the chain. They are storing it all forever just like core runners.
I don’t understand that part. So all this crying about the end of Bitcoin is just a mempool problem? The spam is still on the blockchain of knots nodes? A less accurate mempool is a problem for lightning too.
Idk if it’s a dead end but Luke lost his Bitcoin because he didn’t store it properly on his computer. Idk if I wanna trust that guy to secure my node.
Just mempool. Knots users store the exact same chain and validate the exact same blocks as core users. And yeah, when spam is low not a big deal. During spam rushes where spam is paying 600s/vbyte you run a real risk of getting robbed for a lightning justice transaction by filtering your mempool when no one else does. Every knots person I asked if they were willing to fork chains over it said no. The quiet part there is that they are just virtue signaling then. Luke's shenanigans like begging poverty to the community then losing 100 coins from a hot wallet and blaming core devs are a whole different issue. They are an issue for sure. I still mine with ocean for my pool mining but I use the no filter endpoint to do it.
See where I’m confused is the chain split possibility. I heard that knots and core stuff can lead to a chain split if certain conditions are met. But I couldn’t understand how that’s possible. That’s my only concern and the reason why I haven’t done any update to my node. But I agree this all just seems like virtue signaling. I don’t like spam but people are trying to make Bitcoin uphold some moral standard even though they’ve spent years talking about how Bitcoin is for enemies. That means Bitcoin is also for retards that want to waste money on spam.
Pedantic... Chain split, no one has perfect knowledge so for a bit 2 different chains of the same length but different blocks exist. Eventually 1 chain takes the lead and everyone moves to the longer chain. There will be 1 chain again eventually after a split. The blocks that were mined on the abandoned chain are called orphan blocks. After the merge back into a single chain it is like the orphans never happened. Chain fork. This is where Litecoin, BSV, BCH and other shitcoins come from. Because block validation rules are different these can never merge back together. Knots is not a risk of a chain fork given current stated ideology and programming. It is a risk of a chain split. Does a split matter? Say a big miner like Foundry, 35% of blocks, and a tiny miner like ocean, 1% of blocks, both hit blocks at the same time and split. Which block will most likely be orphaned? During the split each miner follows the chain they heard about first. Well foundry has a guaranteed 35% of all hash following their block. That means ocean is most likely to get orphaned. An orphaned block means I as an ocean miner don't get paid for my hash. So I'm incentivized to mine with the big pool because fewer orphan blocks means I get paid more. Downside is now foundry gets even bigger and controls mining even more than their current 35%.
Peter Todd is a fucking statist retard though. They could’ve handled this so much better. Lopp also made a bad decision banning bitcoin mechanic for making a valid point about conflict of interest. Everyone acting like children.
You forgot warmongering. @Peter Todd is fucking statist warmongering retard. Lopp claims he doesn't have admin and someone else banned Mechanic. His words to me when I put him on the spot about it. Agree completely about bad behavior all around. If you let feelings about the people or their behavior make your decision here you'd end up shutting off your node and selling your stack. Core steam were needlessly antagonistic by removing the setting. If they had left the setting and changed the default none of the controversy happens. Then both sides ran around calling names instead of talking about the technical details.
There should be no comparison when we refer to money vs spam. If I ask you to take a picture of my family for payment instead of accepted legal tender… You would laugh in my face and say “PAY ME!” Filtering out the spam is NOT the best thing for the security and longevity of the Bitcoin network. Nor is it wrong. Accepting spam is not the best thing either. Using Bitcoin as MONEY IS the highest and best use case for the security and longevity of the Bitcoin Network. There are no miners that only take “spam” and relay in on the chain. That would be death in less than 30 days. So it is not that profitable to relay and or accept the spam. Spam equates to maybe 50 million USD worth of transactions per year (which is not a lot of value.) I forgot the actual number that Slipstream had. You commented that the blockchain has “500 transactions currently.” Can I ask you how many of them are financial transactions? I would guess all of them are financial and non are spam. In the short term “spam” looks profitable, but so is theft. It can help you today, but that isn’t sustainable long term. Everyone that I know has “some interest” in money. Less than 1% of 1% of 1% of people that I know have interest in storing items or anything on the chain. (I don’t know anyone personally that has sent spam on the network. As of now it does look like mining fees per transaction are low, but I don’t see not 1 large miner having a decline in hash rate. That is because the reward is far too high vs the transaction fees. #minewithocean #mynodemychoice #runknots #bitcoin #lightning
How are you thinking about Knots now that some time has passed? (I run Knots because I don't want to spam other nodes. My junk mail goes in my trash can, not your mailbox.)
I have concerns that filtering out the spam just pushes people to pay the large miners directly to put their spam on the blockchain. This is bad for miner decentralization since the large miners are basically guaranteed all that revenue. The smaller miners have no chance of earning any rewards for that spam. And yes I don’t want spam on the blockchain, but it doesn’t seem like you can stop it so why are we hurting smaller miners?
Miner centralization is currently being driven by template sharing due to pool financing. The issue you bring up would only come into play if #knots dominated the network, and it would only be a drop in the bucket compared to the template sharing issue. Even if we were in the situation you describe, I think the impact of forwarding spam would be marginal. The miners would get extra revenue only when spammers are willing to pay.
If I'm able to help small miners a tiny bit by stuffing your mailbox with junk mail, I still don't want to do it.
Bitcoin Mechanic's avatar Bitcoin Mechanic
The fact that filters work at all when mining is as centralized as it is today (which is going to be fixed quite soon thanks to @npub1qtvl...7dze 's DATUM protocol and @jack 's work in the hardware/firmware space) means filters going to become insanely powerful in the future. This is why there is this push so hard to rip filters out now, because once spammers making out-of-band "transactions" must negotiate with hundreds of miners instead of a single pool, they'll struggle to get these gamified attacks against Bitcoin going as easily and they will remain something we can tolerate rather than horrible, runaway attacks like inscriptions. Individual miners adding spam is tolerable, that's what affords Bitcoin its censorship resistance and will always be possible regardless of what nodes may choose to relay. Right now however, you can evade a filter by convincing one giant miner (such as Antpool) to ignore it. Then it does so on behalf of tens of thousands of hashers pointing their machines to it. People don't understand that "sub 1 s/vb summer" is a product of mining being almost completely centralized. It doesn't prove filters are useless, it just proves how censorship-prone Bitcoin is because you can make massive, sweeping decrees about what ends up in the blockchain by dealing with one single entity responsible for 30% of block templates. And again, even with mining in this state, MARA still elected to abandon routing around a filter because the delay in block propagation was not worth it. They are a single miner and probably the biggest miner in the world - only outsized by pools like Foundry and Antmain who must soon be broken up into their constituent parts if their hashers stop being complacent and Bitcoin finally abandons centralized mining. They are economically incentivized to do this because FPPS is usually a waste of money for a hasher. It is significantly harder to spam Bitcoin in an environment where mining is decentralized - which it obviously needs to be. It's only possible to get persistent, gamified spam attacks if nodes agree to help the spammers out which they have no reason to do if the concern about spam filters causing mining centralization is a lie - and it is. Because the reason mining is centralized is not spam filters - so removing them isn't going to fix anything. The reason is that Foundry, Antpool and others are acting as giant miners on behalf of their hashers due to the mistake that is Stratum V1. We are going to get past this horrific mistake and it makes sense to plan accordingly, not to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by tearing out filters in resignation to mining remaining centralized when it isn't going to much longer. Spam filters are a product of a network run by and for the benefit of nodes. Nodes having to relay spam is an admission of defeat - that pools will always remain centralized arbiters of what goes in blocks and thus can always be bribed into filling the chain up with crap that the nodes rejected from their mempools. It then takes this further and uses that as a rationalization for coercing nodes into trying to at least make the spam available to a few more miners to "level the playing field" among maybe a dozen miners instead of just a couple. Big whoop. The chain ends up trashed, nodes don't run for their own benefit any more and are now tacit free service providers for miners undermining their own investment. That is not a Bitcoin with a future and it's a completely unnecessary compromise. The purpose of spam filters is self evident for anyone running a node, even for a mining node. Excuses being made to justify their removal are shameful and insist that we can only ever have a Bitcoin where the Bitcoin miners of the world are mere hashers using the Stratum V1 protocol to evade their role in choosing what goes in the blockchain and that thusly, spam filters can surely be routed around easily enough that nodes must acquiesce. To reiterate: Spam filters have nothing to do with the centralization of mining, it is the poor design of the Stratum protocol which turns inevitably centralized reward split coordinators (aka "pools") into *miners* for the purposes of deciding what goes into the chain. That was never sustainable, and it's being fixed. If that gets fixed, then what nodes relay - and pretty much only what nodes relay - is what ends up in blocks as nothing out-of-band is sustainable if they can't find a miner large enough to grant them the blockspace necessary for their attack. If you only have a small group of entities deciding what goes into the chain and what doesn't, you're not decentralized or censorship resistant. But yes, you can route around spam filters trivially. Again, no one is proving what they think they are by paying a giant pool to evade a filter. The more decentralized mining gets, the more filters work. And I repeat: The fact that they work at all today with mining as centralized as it is and that Core must aggressively break stuff like datacarriersize for BitVM guys to have a shot at using OP_RETURN reliably instead of fake pubkeys should be incontrovertible proof that filters work as we say they do.
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