Replies (69)
In a few years us Americans will see cheap American crap everywhere. And we have to pay much for it too.
Of course supporting locally made better products would be better, but how far away in time are these things from being made locally?
Only thing government needed to do was lift regulations to forming companies, lowering taxes, and creating products.
We should be building a world where things are cheaper and available to more people. Where advances in tech can be in people’s hands as fast as possible. Where that tech can be used to build the next wave of innovation.
Imagine being a Bitcoiner (Libertarian) and then also agaisnt Free Markets...
A private city could have tariffs tho.
I generally try to think of the positives and negatives of certain ideas from first principles at a give time, not just blanket join some idea because i’m supposed to. Freer trade has gotten us to the point where the US depends on a foreign adversary for their weapons and defense tech. How is that a good thing? Wouldn’t you at least want a motivator to get people to build a manufacturing base here instead? Build up expertise so that you are more self sovereign?
Other than food and a few other things, there's no reason why local production is any better. Global transport is cheap and expertise is spread out.
I think there's two reasons many products are crap quality:
1. Consumers only care about price
2. Amazon deliberately confuses consumers about quality, e.g. by allowing fake reviews, deceptive marketing, not having expert reviews, and not having objective filters for quality
(2) was a bit better when local retailers still existed that actually knew what they were selling and could vouch for quality. Though there plenty bad sales incentives there too.
For an illustration of (2):
Putting tariffs on Amazon would probably fix more than putting them on China :-)
more for it *
No, China is much better at manufacturing things at scale. What you'll get is something twice as good that's not quite what you need for 10x the price. That's okay for simple things, but not good for things that need to be the right size. Apple famously ran into serious problems getting the right screws for assembly in Texas
Yea I agree. My concern is that much cheap American crap is made with private prison labor. This will be adding incentives towards imprisoning an even larger proportion of the population for a captive cheap labor force.
What I like about AliExpress stuff is, that it really empowers the privateer. Idk how it is in US/Canada, but in Europe they're sort of hiding/uppricing this basic stuff and tools to make you go to a "professional" for everything. it's a real desaster...
We can blame people for shopping cheaply as their wages have been inflated to oblivion and taxed to hell, or go to the root of the problem and admit the central planners have run amok.
Allow people to keep what they earn, remove taxes on property and businesses. Get rid of ridiculous laws that allow businesses to be a "legal fiction".. etc. Every person is their own business.
Stop believing in politics, if you over 40, male and believe that shit, you are an incel.
Is it free trade or triffins dilemma? I can understand that most or all of the lowest margin manufacturing not being in the U.S. but right now only the most high margin products are being produced. A true free market would have more middle margin stuff here no?
Yes, culture and society is more important than short term economy
What you're probably tired of is the byproducts of runaway consumerism. Dramatic price hikes across all products might curb that, but won't "fix" it so much as it will destabilize supply chains and cause unrest
Yes. Also, US imports from China are much more frivolous & optional than the Chinese imports from the US are.
Why are they better? Why can’t we be as good? Just easier to import so the skills and manufacturing base are never built out?
That would be insane
No one stoping you from paying more to buy good stuff already now?
People aren’t even making stuff locally anymore. It feels like everything is imported. I mean, i’m sure it exists, but i don’t even know where to go to find it. Almost everything is chinese made.
Cutting tiny screws, forming bits of sheet metal, and populating surface mount components is hard work and doesn't pay well enough domestically, so pretty much all of our manufacturing sector moved to Asia. We kept enough to make satellites and fighter jets, but that only works when your bolt costs $200. We can build it back up, but that will take decades, and will slowly produce expensive, inferior parts along the way
So what you're essentially trying to say is that more government intervention can be a good thing if it improves workers rights and leads to more sustainable produce?
That's very liberal of you 😅
I would say i’m a bit liberal yeah, but mostly centerish. But liberal these days means something completely different so i don’t even know anymore.
I’m more interested in how incentives shapes behaviour. Doesn’t necessarily have to be state-directed and top down.
Its not that simple. Direction might be right but current execution is far from how to get there. They need to reduce debt levels and reduce reliance on supply chains. With current plan pretty much they can't even start being more self sufficient.
Honestly. Mass made and same products distributed by 10 different suppliers.
Not gonna happen. People are used to buying cheap. Producing locally makes that impossible. Can you imagine yourself sewing Nike shoes and T-shirts for $5 a day?
Encouraging local production under Trump’s policies may be a positive initiative, but many factories operate based on long-term strategies. Relocating operations overnight is simply not feasible. It’s likely that some companies are considering whether it’s more strategic to wait out the next three years until a potential change in leadership.
A trade war between the economic superpowers with how highly levered the system is is tantamount to a nuclear hot war on the economy.
Buying cheap shot from China just to buy something is stupid. But China also produces some things that they are the only ones right now who does it good. Not many companies outside of China make good batteries, solar panels, drones and drone parts and many other things.
I was with you right up until you used a sexual preference as an insult. I think that negatively impacted the power of the message.
I didn't mention sexual preferences?
seems a bit dramatic
As it stands, the cost of manufacturing in the United States is much higher than that of manufacturing in China. For the rich, they can certainly choose more expensive and better things, but for the lower class people, they cannot afford more expensive things.
🤔
Local production/manufacturing can give a region a sense of pride and ownership of a product, there’s certainly something to be said there. I understand it’s not all sunshine and roses, but towns and cities all over used and to this day are called things like the “clock city” or the “yarn city” etc, etc.
Consumers very much care about quality but it’s in the context of the product. With extremely cheap, semi disposable goods, consumer’s criteria for quality is mainly that it actually works as intended and doesn’t break immediatley.
Low time preference. Proof of work. Adopt the bitcoin standard 🧡🗽
Some short term pain will be required to reap long term reward.
Ever see a Chinese die transfer? If they fuck up, miss the timing, get an arm lopped off, they just put them on the other side of the press with their good arm.
Got to have those parts! Chinesium steel is gooder. 😂
Who say Americans would make quality stuff? There is also some absolutely amazing and high quality stuff made is 100% in China.
Look at American cars when they were all made here, for 30 years they were absolute garbage.
Why is supporting local better? Says who?
If the best value per dollar for a product is next town over, great. If it is from China or France or Russia. Great.
It is amazing to me how many people don’t understand how advanced and automated Chinese factories have become.
You got too much statism in you brodah
Every place could still have a specialty to be proud off, which they then sell all over the world. Ideally of course.
Incel = intentional celibate no? Or have I misunderstood what incel means?
I’m thinking of bringing my community up than any other people first.
Ideally, yes indeed.
Ah. In my view, there is nothing good about going back to manufacturing. Putting my neighbors into a factory stamping steel or making tools is not a good thing. IMO.
I understand what you’re seeing saying. But what is the alternative to stamping steel?
Pushing buttons?
Regardless we need to do it by our hands, understand it at the lowest levels before handing it over to robots to do it.
I completely disagree.
Robots should do everything. The money should be sound. We shouldn't have to work more than a few hours per week(unless you want to) as purchasing power skyrockets from tech and productivity.
I don’t disagree with that, alls I’m saying is we need people to understand how to do all first and continue that legacy alongside.
I understand an Incel makes a choice to be celibate as they are such a loser. But they can have any sexual preferences and belong to any group .
However, I'm not part of any Incel groups so maybe you know more than me?
0% employment should be the goal. While not possible, a fantastic goal!
I go back and forth thinking this is what is ideal or not. Very zeitgeist 3ish.
Followed
Becauase price fixing leads to economic stagnation and eventually collapse, no matter how well intentioned. Tariffs are just another form of price fixing.
@jb55 you could already buy those low time preference goods before, why impose tariffs (taxes) on goods YOU think people should NOT buy? Let everybody make their own decisions. Why force them into doing what YOU think is right? That's state interventionism and not a free market.
Just let people make their own decisions and not get in the way? How about that?
ok, but i have no control over the decisions that governments make. I am not advocating for such a system, i am just thinking of the effects it will have on the world, and if it’s necessarily that bad. Was trying to think of positive outcomes.
You asked "How are tariffs on china a bad thing in this sense?" and the first principle answer is, that all state interventionism is bad (including tariffs). That's why I recommended you Mises, as he (and many others) deeply thought about all these implications from first principles.
I understand your thoughts and conclusions but they are way above first principles, there are many many layers below that.
So choosing to be celibate is their preference…
It’s just a shame you had to finish you post with a childish insult.
I think we just have to disagree and I think an insult was perfectly appropriate, these people (mostly boomers) are total incels as we have seen during COVID.
Having a bad day?
Dude, are you sure you've detoxed enough from X? It was a light-hearted note in a friendly conversation...
American made products are the same, if not worse.
You could always buy better quality from Germany and Japan but you choose not to.
I thought we would be all 3d printing our own cheap stuff by now, but alas, it seems we still need professional manufacturing with cheap labor.
Because the tariffs are also on raw materials and parts, making it unreasonably expensive to manufacture things in the US. If the tariffs were only on fished goods or strategic industries that might be different.
Quality from Germany? Where have you been hiding for the last few decades? :-)
The absolute exploitation of cheap Labour is one issue which I hope could be solved somewhat by this…although perhaps there could be other ways around solving it too
