Quite a few people suggesting/using dice to mitigate the Coldcard vulnerability.
Note that common dice are not designed to be cryptographically secure.
If you are going to do this, you probably should buy precision casino dice. And even then, have another source of entropy.
Replies (37)
ROFL
Lava lamps.
Strong passphrase on top should do?
That's why coldcardQ has a full keyboard ;)
on top of dice rolls rolled with normal dice? Probably, provided you rolled 100+ times
Casino dice are definitely more uniform, but the real nuance is that dice bias only matters if the entropy model is already weak. If your rolls are hashed properly, combined with a passphrase, or mixed with secure‑element entropy, even regular dice produce safe randomness.
The only time precision dice become critical is when the device’s RNG is compromised and the dice rolls are the sole source of entropy. In a proper setup, hashing destroys any physical bias.
No, I mean on top of a randomly generated private key on the device. I trust that software more than a commercial dice
Terrible advice! Yes, you only get the full on-paper entropy with perfect dice. Perfect dice do not exist. Don't use any dice!
Maybe being shy 1% of the optimal entropy is good enough and certainly better than the ColdCard shitshow of using just a few bits?
Why use accessory hardware at all when phone wallets get industry scale stress testing and security updates and conventional payment systems can operate with internet connected devices?
if a hacker found a valid 12 or 24 word seed phrase I'm not sure that they even can know that its got a passphrase which is some protection. I guess having funds in the 12 words without the passphrase would tell them that it might have a passphrase with other funds and they would start hacking it. With a long passphrase its probably quite safe but I'd be moving the funds as quickly as possible if it were me.
For sure. Not using Coldcard, but you know, one must be prepared
Do a Coin flip.
End of the day
Maybe its time to increase seed phrase entropy. Guess that what multisig is for.
Dont even need a dice. Can use a coin. So its coin and coin.
Normal dice are fine, no need for casino dice
If you do the recommended 99 rolls with an extremely biased dice (⚀ and ⚅ only), then you still have 99 bits of entropy, which is fine
If you see all six numbers coming up in your 99 rolls, you're fine
Also avoid using ColdCard unless you also follow the procedure to verify that the ColdCard isn't cheating on you. The BitBox method doesn't involve trusting external hardware.
Just stack metal. It’s a lot easier.
> and even then
Why? Are casino dice not secure? What's your reasoning in making this statement?
When using common dice, the more dice you roll at once the more any potential biasez in each specific dice get randomly positioned. As long as they aren't rolled in a specific order and they all dont have the same bias this mostly recoups any loss of entropy. And if youre generating a 256 bit key...
The only thing I'd change is, coins aren't random enough unless you get a real random coin, and since the coin is being used for the same operation over and over it compounds. Use another casino die and say odd = heads and even = tails. And, instead of saying "this die is the coin", make the last of six (right to left and top to bottom" count as the coin, this randomizes any loss of entropy a little bit more should one of the dice have a significant bias.
same toughts from me when I read this. Thank you for writing and reply. PV 🫂
Bad idea
did you miss the part about not trusting a hardware wallet that isnt open source? Are you new to Bitcoin? did you come from FTX?
How come
What is the definition of cryptographically secure dice?
- What does open source in hardware matter with no way to self vet and build it?
- Why care about hardware trust when trusting compilers?
seedsigner is a diy you can build from independent suppliers & stateless/*foss
Thanks highlighting that.
- Can you explain stateless and if it solves the compiler issue?
- How much difference can signers make when payment clients run on closed source electronics like Wi-Fi chips and central processors and does it create security theater?
- Why bother when major electronics brands like Apple have security incentives aligned with their built in payment features?
- Why address the supplier level when hardware integrity seems build dependent first like local fab like with Fab2 tools, fab2.com ?
Self custody is super simple
View quoted note →@MAHDOOD the lord has spoken lol
Casino dice smh
Tbh he is right. Most dice have un even surface and weight plus human hand shake patterns aren’t that random. So you need a casino dice plus a shaker.
Sigh*
Where do I get these casino dice from
Time to go to vegas…
There are cameras everywhere lol
Still better than coldcard.
