Replies (99)
Really?
Yes it has felt different. Whatβs being throttled? Or to ask another way, what are they doing when theyβre throttling?
This is why I post to the moonboi relay
#π
nostr's growing too big for free relays without funds to expand infrastructure
people like me and
@cloud fodder have been banging on about this for ages because we are both experienced with systems administration and structural limitatations and budget problems
Which paid relay do you suggest?
well for example, damus relay now only allows a couple messages per minute, that incudes ALL kinds, zaps, likes, follows, profiles, replies.. drafts, for sure would burn this before you even post.
Meanwhile on nostr:
cloud fodder
have you noticed nostr got a lot quieter in the last weeks? if you did, its probably because your notes are being rejected by naieve throttling on ALL the big relays.
you wont notice it when you post because clients dont surface this info to you, for all you know just nobody liked your post, but the reality is it did not post.
π
View quoted note →
Exhibit A: Distributed systems made by 5 year olds.
cloud fodder
have you noticed nostr got a lot quieter in the last weeks? if you did, its probably because your notes are being rejected by naieve throttling on ALL the big relays.
you wont notice it when you post because clients dont surface this info to you, for all you know just nobody liked your post, but the reality is it did not post.
π
View quoted note →
i suggest you bug your fav client dev about using the outbox model, because changing relays is only part of the solution
Interesting that it would include all event types. Makes it almost unusable for any average user. I wonder if theyβre going to make Damus Purple necessary to use the relay.
what's this outbox model?
i would do that instead if i were them
its like autopilot for relay settings
yes really, i tested it and got a 30% success rate
Well that seems shitty
That would be better than making the relay unusable at all π
Isn't that still "changing the relays"?
yes but if your client doesnt know where to look for your follows itll be just as quiet when they change or vice versa
Nostur
#Nostur update (TestFlight)
- VPN detection toggle: only connect to additional relays if VPN is detected
- Also show possible imposter label in quoted posts
- UI tweaks, more compact, less clutter
- Fixed last sentence in post sometimes missing
- Fixed Web of Trust filter sometimes not loaded after launch
TestFlight:
https://nostur.com/testflight
Source code:
https://nostur.com/source
this is why i've been an avid subscriber of paid relays... i now also rent one off you and i get confirmations off all three of them almost every time
though the other day i had amethyst totally eat two notes i wrote on my phone, so idk, there could be some factor of clients in this problem
Sounds like a bullet in the head of nostr to me.
How would a user be able to know if/when a relay is throttling?
clients usually cover up the failure.. but most relays will respond back and say why its not currently accepting a particular note so that you would know to retry.
I just made a post about this a couple days ago:
Using noStrudel, it will show you the status of every event generated from your account. I've started noticing that with any event whether it be a reaction, zap, note, etc. just as you mentioned, there's always at least a few relays that don't accept it for one vague reason or another.
The thing that really bothers me about it is that with most of them you can't go and see what rule you broke or what the specific cause was if they don't include it in the 5-6 word error.
Zaelus
What can or should be done about these failures to post to relays? I assume I wrote something that broke a rule, but I have no way to find out.
I tried to find some kind of list of policies or rules or something for each relay but wasn't able to find anything useful. Unless I missed it, they don't have actual websites with stuff like that listed. Just wondering if anyone has advice. How would you find out what policy you violated or why you were blocked? Is it even worth worrying about, or should you just add more relays to your publish list and move on? #asknostr
Both noStrudel and Gossip give feedback on the status of every event generated from your key.
nostrudel did a great job showing how simple it can be to show the status, now it needs outbox model for reading notes from follows and similar award winning UI for that also.
relays can easily have as many words or landing pages as possible, thats just a matter of giving them a reason to.. (eg, that their users can see the messages)
Agreed, it's UI/UX is still definitely rough and awkward in a few places. I like to actually swap between it and Gossip. Gossip feels even more weird, kind of like an application from the 90s or something, but I appreciate the amount of lower-level info it provides.
Thanks for the info... I guess in these specific cases it's probably like you said, they haven't really had a reason.
Oh good to know. I use noStrudel when Iβm on desktop (which is rarely π) so Iβll check that out next time.
Heh, nothing matches radios for uncensorable content, everything else can get it done one way or another....
most def amethyst is the most hurt rn, cause it spams drafts
Damus appears to be the only one rejecting my events right now. That might be because noStrudel doing something fancy like pushing the latest version of replaceable events if it detects damus serving older versions of my follows profiles for example.
P2P broadcast... nothing except propagation conditions to bottleneck anything. lol.
ya, im sure you could also get perpetually silenced if someone reposts your old notes too..
What? If I post your old events to relay, relay will reject your new events? I don't think so. Rate limiting should apply to the connection and not to the author.
its both
in fact its mostly by pubkeys because most relays cannot tell what youre doing on your connection, its all websocket messages.
While technically a protocol that can decentralise we seem to be centralising... weird.
People do realise we actually could always decentralise right? Remember forums & irc?
You moved from one to another.
I realized it had to be both but that's also a DOS attack vector to silence specific people.
i member
amethyst isn't keeping a local cache?
if you use a local relay it can but i dont think it sends just to that.. from what ive seen they go everywhere. i turned it off by disallowing it from amber signer.
i meant, in-app drafts cache
cos i had two notes disappear the other day, again, was the last straw for me, and an excuse to use my mobile even less
the death of nostr lol
keet wins again
why p2p pear and keet
p2p still has a problem with spam
π―
The more you know π
reading... rain boweeeeee ππ³π« π
No such thing as a free relay. π€πΌ
I write to multiple private relays and the big relays pull from there.
View quoted note βThis is why an extremely configurable relay implementation that's really easy to use, was important to me.
I was literally thinking about exactly this today.
It is time for the ecash nut π₯ per note relay implementation
cloud fodder
have you noticed nostr got a lot quieter in the last weeks? if you did, its probably because your notes are being rejected by naieve throttling on ALL the big relays.
you wont notice it when you post because clients dont surface this info to you, for all you know just nobody liked your post, but the reality is it did not post.
π
View quoted note →
I wonder if I'd even notice tbh, I'm here to talk to myself lol
cloud fodder
have you noticed nostr got a lot quieter in the last weeks? if you did, its probably because your notes are being rejected by naieve throttling on ALL the big relays.
you wont notice it when you post because clients dont surface this info to you, for all you know just nobody liked your post, but the reality is it did not post.
π
View quoted note →
so are most major relays censoring now?
cloud fodder
have you noticed nostr got a lot quieter in the last weeks? if you did, its probably because your notes are being rejected by naieve throttling on ALL the big relays.
you wont notice it when you post because clients dont surface this info to you, for all you know just nobody liked your post, but the reality is it did not post.
π
View quoted note →
I got tired of beating this drum. The relays and the relay runners will centralize operational authority.
Let's see if the plebs care. Til then I watch. But am losing hope
Clients should be retrying notes anyways
Itβs based on connection/ip not author
Its not both, its only ip
π₯²π
There are broadcast buttons.
If your event makes it to one of the medium or large-sized relays, it gets pulled by aggregators and quickly shows up all over. Then you get around rate limits.
The problems arise for people only using the very biggest relays and/or with no outbox model.
This last note was on at least 98 relays within 15 seconds, according to
https://nadar.tigerville.no/Damus broadcasts automatically with geometric backoff if it fails to write to the relay, you donβt need to do it manually. If clients donβt do this then notes are easily lost during connection issues
Yes, I have that problem on Freerse.
I think Nostrudel retries. Never seem to lose anything, there. Same with Coracle.
this is what all proper network clients do... you can see examples of it in the bitcoin core and btcd p2p code as well
front end devs are not often so well versed in the problems of socket networking, being used to HTTP APIs... websocket libraries don't give you any tools for this either
yeah nostrudel and coracle have both had this since i first used the beginning of this year... the client should keep a queue and a checklist of which relays it has got to and some sort of scheme for backing off
one of the differences with web clients though is that queue is nixed when you refresh the page, and sometimes the page scripts are broken and make this refresh happen on clicks unintentionally
WHAT?
AND I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST BECAUSE I TOOK A BREAK FROM SENDING.
I WANT TO SEE THE MANAGER!
View quoted note βUnthrottling the Damus relay would be a nice premium feature. That's one of the best relays.
Good idea
Same.
Unthrottle + long term backup by mirroring to a purple relay for members π€
i already subscribe to wine and land i'd be up for damus as well
Probably would go for Damus Premium for the GitCitadel npub, to maximize reach.
t-y Will for participating!
Would also be good if the Premium offered a good spam filter or some advanced search, or something.
hitchhiker?
On the relay, I mean.
Some of us are relay customers, more than client customers. We're sort of client nomads, but we use the same relays everywhere.
And we'd be more-inclined to use a client, if it offered us controls for a relay, like relay.tools does.
Most probably won't.
who said we need one global anyway
At which point I'll probably bail out.
the protocol is designed to be leaky, consistency is loose so that people can do whatever they like
nobody is obliged to fulfill some empty vapid ideal of free speech by carrying your message at their cost
Think you may be projecting some issue I'm not talking about. lol.
true cost ^ i'm obliged to pay just not efficient(here) yet but getting there v4v
Perhaps you may not have noticed that the progression between real spaces & virtual ones are similar, you have the wild west days when it's pretty good, then the "civilised people" invade & everything starts going downhill...
I don't think "they" are worried about this as much as some think, they'll pressure the relays holders one way or another & they'll get what they want eventually.
that's the thing, because nostr can partition we can ultimately isolate ourselves from that bullshit
but it takes a lot of extra tools, like paid relays and spam filters and all the necessary support in clients and relays to allow us to build these walls
they can have their own spammy free relays, we will move to our paid relays where spam is not tolerated and expensive to do
i am already only reading and writing to relays i've paid a subscription for
if i'm seeing your notes that is because the client is doing outbox model and/or my relays are aggregating other relay content related to their users
Maybe, we'll see, it isn't the first time something like that has been tried.
You can also just run your own, but that's also not free.
it's simply already happening, i am only using paid relays now, and my experience is great
some people piss me off but that's life, there is no spam in my feed
Nostr1.com costs 21 sats.
I noticed that there are errors on all relays except my own public relay ..
I reply more than post, so didn't notice
nostr has a problem with spam, everything does
they haven't been hit with much yet so we will have to see what they dev to solve it
