Thread

Welcome to Nostr. The Vlog experiment is finally starting to cool off (mercifully), and the vibe-coded stuff mostly died on arrival. I'm sure we are only two or three weeks away from the next Nostr trend. Out of the "recent" trend I’ve actually enjoy is the https://relays.land/ experiment by nostr:nprofile1qqsrhuxx8l9ex335q7he0f09aej04zpazpl0ne2cgukyawd24mayt8gprfmhxue69uhhq7tjv9kkjepwve5kzar2v9nzucm0d5hszxmhwden5te0wfjkccte9emk2um5v4exucn5vvhxxmmd9us2xuyp, which mostly flew under the radar as its outside the BTC Twitter Zeitgeist. I hope that at least some of the curated relay experiments like SpatriaNostra (curated by nostr:nprofile1qqsvyv8d6dx2tjp33069j2kq2mx7xage6w2upyzvxl4pcegt3t22wyspz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7qfqwaehxw309ashqmrpvdjkjmn5dpjhxatw9ehx7um5wgcjucm0d5hszyrhwden5te0dehhxarj9ekk7mf00fytsp and nostr:nprofile1qqsymsh9wrz5lmurz0arqn6jjaqyfmtvz2z3qpfxqz5msnvr0wqjd7gprdmhxue69uhhg6r9vehhyetnwshxummnw3erztnrdakj7qg3waehxw309ahx7um5wghxcctwvshs2mpw4w) survive.

By the way, since I just tagged all of you (I know, I'm annoying, but I have good intentions), we maybe need some solution for comments here. E.g. a perfect fine neutral post like this has a way to trojan horse some of Nostr's toxic stuff with it. nostr:nevent1qqswwzvgryt3l7uqq6zqyjx0xxatkg9lqjl485pgtzgrvllaznrms6spz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchsygy8z2ekn6gx5wf97cqqps9fcyk720pzna4kpmngdyk5kuuyqcj6lypsgqqqqqqsxchlwv I think that for an onboarding relay we would also need to curate comments (not sure if this is possible, and it would likely also need some client side support: nostr:nprofile1qqsvvcpmpuwvlmrztkwq3d6nunmhf6hh688jw6fzxyjmtl2d5u5qr8spz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qgewaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnda68ymmn9eshqup0fwxfnr, nostr:nprofile1qqsgzfdez8ksa9xmuvqg5zly3nl9e5xqkpvj8nllj9aw06ra4pqq3qcpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7q2uwaehxw309ac8ymmc0yhxummnw3ez6un9d3shjtnpwpcz7ct9xvcxycfjxvmnycm9vsmxxvfexccxgdpevvcryd3kvejxgvm9xqmkxetpx5exyvtzvcenwwrxv33rvwp5v9jk2d3nxcekgetrxsmqqltm2c)

I don't know. That gets into a lot of opinion. The curation happening with spatia nostra is dynamic & community driven. Conversation is part of that. The more weighted voters only act as temporary guides for the main feed. A few particular people could collude & turn it into a bitcoin only feed, if they wanted to do that. Something even more moderated could exist now. I'm not personally a fan of creating a false perspective that way. Learning how to manage the personal experience is pretty important on Nostr & replies are a good spot to start.

I get what you’re saying, but a picture of a Marsh down to "killrapejews" in the comments means that both the "relay I can onboard people to" and the "relay I can safely open at a conference or at work to show how awesome Nostr can be" use cases are dead. I personally had a weird experience at a conference where both the people I was showing Nostr to noticed the toxic stuff just as my personal relay got DDoS’ed (and I received alerts about it on my mobile). Honestly perfect timing... These were DevOps folks, so… 🤣 basically, failed experiment. I understand that nobody wants to play a censorship role, but we could really, really, really use a good "demo" feed to onboard people. I know that Fiatjaf is also working on some LLM filters, but nothing beats human curation. Spartianostra can be so nice when it’s full of flowers, photography, pets, arts, and music. I would have zero issues with a "Fully curated by Dawn and only Dawn forever" relay acting as a showcase of how awesome Nostr can be. I understand that it would be false advertising of sorts, but in a way, it can demonstrate Nostr’s potential for folks willing to put the effort into curating their feeds.

I understand. I'm not sure what the best way forward for that would be. That heavy of moderation doesn't fit within the scope of the dynamic voting relay & I'm too much of an advocate for personal responsibility to come up with a viable alternative that doesn't involve user action.

I'm desperate enough to go for personL "curation" pubkeys and only showing the profile feed during demos. Its a sad reality but it is what it is...

If I see anything resembling moderated replies, I'll be sure to mention it to you. 🫂

I was thinking... could you use Coracle in conjunction with spatianostra for these demonstrations? It wouldn't be perfect, but it nests replies beyond 2nd level. For the particular note that caused your concern, the more flagrant of the replies aren't automatically displayed upon opening the thread. That scenerio is fairly common. I would believe more common than finding immediately jarring first level replies on otherwise nice notes... barring attack behavior, of course. The original statement is still visible along with a couple of the offsetting replies, defending the context of the original post, but it reads rationally. Any further inflammatory debate requires extra clicking to reveal. Just a thought.

Hey Dawn, it’s been a while since I last tested Coracle. I’ll have a look, thanks for the hint. I know I’m being insistent on something you see as censorship, but I feel quite strongly that we should have ways to curate comments as well. From both a free speech and technical point of view, there’s very little difference between having a staging area just for NIP-01 (short notes) or for both NIP-01 and NIP-22 (comments). From a client’s perspective, it could be as simple as allowing the user to choose “only display comments from the relay I’m looking at”. I don’t see that as censorship, since everyone can still comment in all other relays, and clients could also allow the user to switch to an Outbox model + hints to fetch the remaining comments. I really think the ability to restrict viewing comments published only to the relay you’re looking at would be an awesome feature in itself, even beyond the scope of creating a better onboarding fee. nostr:nprofile1qqsvvcpmpuwvlmrztkwq3d6nunmhf6hh688jw6fzxyjmtl2d5u5qr8spz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7qgewaehxw309aex2mrp0yhxummnda68ymmn9eshqup0fwxfnr nostr:nprofile1qqsgzfdez8ksa9xmuvqg5zly3nl9e5xqkpvj8nllj9aw06ra4pqq3qcpz4mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduhszrnhwden5te0dehhxtnvdakz7q2uwaehxw309ac8ymmc0yhxummnw3ez6un9d3shjtnpwpcz7ct9xvcxycfjxvmnycm9vsmxxvfexccxgdpevvcryd3kvejxgvm9xqmkxetpx5exyvtzvcenwwrxv33rvwp5v9jk2d3nxcekgetrxsmqqltm2c tagging you both again. nostr:nprofile1qqsrhuxx8l9ex335q7he0f09aej04zpazpl0ne2cgukyawd24mayt8gprfmhxue69uhhq7tjv9kkjepwve5kzar2v9nzucm0d5hszxmhwden5te0wfjkccte9emk2um5v4exucn5vvhxxmmd9us2xuyp apparently decided he doesn’t like me anymore and I'm not sure if he will be notified about this, but I’m sure this wouldn’t be much of a technical challenge for relays.land curated relays (Fiatjaf even made a fully moderated relay available, and from a quick look the code his experiments seems quite flexible).

That would require the relay to accept replies. I'm pretty sure dynamic voting doesn't accept them at all. Even if it did, some other voting scheme would need to implemented. The positive threshold is too high for any reply to meet it. No one person or set of people curate the main feed, its all community vote to some degree. Notes make it to the main feed without the assistance of the heaviest weighted voters quite often & increasingly so. The weight of our votes is decreasing over time, too. I hope you check out Coracle for this. It has many view control options, including some WoT stuff. The app & web client both work really well. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

I don’t really have a good idea for new users at the moment. For existing users though, enabling WoT could help.

It's interesting that the worst thing in that thread is a screenshot from X 😂

The one thing that seems to stay constant throughout all the trends is user numbers.

whoa thanks for pointing out relay.land!

🥲

I see this as an opportunity. I mean, a lot of people want to escape Twitter.

I have been using client side filtering on top of a WoT relay forever. It works well enough, but nothing beats human curation, specially when trying to showcase a clean feed for new users.

I think the experimental curated and moderated relays on relay.land are one of our best bets. What I’d like to see on the client side is an option where, when I’m viewing notes from a relay such as https://jumble.social/?r=wss://relays.land/spatianostra, I can choose to view only the comments published to that relay, with the option to toggle and see comments from all relays instead. This can be useful for a lot of use cases by the way, not only onboarding.

I had a look at the code from the experimental relays yesterday. This can be done quite easily, as long as clients provide a view for seeing only the comments published to a given relay. I agree with you on the voting threshold; I’d need to think more about that one. I also completely get your point about the nature of curation, with "seed" curators having their "shares" diluted over time. That’s one of the best ideas fiatjaf has had recently. Still, curated relays with only a few seeds like this one are great for onboarding and demos, especially before the “shares” dilute too much. I think this area could be explored further (I mean, by the Nostr coding geekies out there, apologies if it sounds like I’m volunteering you for work here 🤣, I’m just genuinely excited about the potential for curated relays and SpartiaNostra is a great showcase for it).