Tekkadan, ゲロゲロ! 🐸's avatar
Tekkadan, ゲロゲロ! 🐸 _@mycelium.social 1 year ago
Gm Vitor. I have been considering this for a very long time, of course how it relates to Nostr I have only been considering for the two years that I have been a part of the ecosystem. I see two problems that are very noticeable on Nostr. The first being a lack of "organized friend lists" and the second being a lack of "managed communities". Both of these properties are enhanced with a centralized database of course, while Nostr is enhanced with the emergent properties that are derived from the "all seeing relays" model encouraged by Blastr. I actually like the Blastr model if it is applied in a way that creates value and incentive structures. It's just that no one wants to host everyone's bloat notes (for free) if the cost is compounding upwards. Relays lose incentive. Instead of proliferating, they become constrained. So what I suggest is a forking of Nostr. Our npubs can be shared across different forms of Nostr which can become frameworks for different network relationship models. In this way we can manage "Other Stuff" without being a slave to the kind 1 note and NIP-02 Follow List format. I think a fully "decentralized" Nostr would be a fully distributed Nostr. That means every user would have incentive to host their own relay. This makes sense if we can reduce the footprint of "Nostr A" to something microscopic. If Nostr's identity layer can proliferate to become a standard that is built into every home router, then we can maximize the proliferation of npubs. @Daniel Wigton suggests hosting data in clusters of friend groups. He wants friends to share encrypted data between themselves directly as a form of redundant personal security. I like this model and think it could also serve as a model for relays. Relays need to organize. In this way, we can maintain different frameworks for standardizations of data interoperability without being committed to any single organizational structure. The thought here is that I should be hosting my own personal relay to host my own notes. If I cannot, then I should be able to find a public relay which would likely make sense to be a decaying type of relay. Do we have relays that decay yet? I would love to publish to a relay that guarantees my note will decay in 1 year, for example. Then I have the authority as a user to determine how long I want to host a note, or how long someone else should host it. It can proliferate and be guided by social peers, but in the end I shouldn't be writing permanently to anywhere unless I want it to be there forever. Which is not everything I say, necessarily. And most of my "thoughts and celebrations and memes" don't really need to proliferate across the internet, so much as they need a home to exist upon until I decide to delete them. It makes sense to have small personal relays and it makes sense to have totally open relays. What doesn't make sense is confining ourselves to "one Nostr". Even if it is open, it is still constrained by its organization. The employment of Nostr is dependent on its structure. So, "relay organization" is not set in stone either. But at first we should have a simple Peer-to-Peer relay authority structure. A relay would either be open to everyone, or it would federate with a group of other relays. Because these federated relays would all be sharing the same goal, they would not be less decentralized than Nostr is now. Instead they would provide authority structure within this decentralized ecosystem. This would allow parent/child relay relationships. The point is that relays would communicate but they would only do so by grouping and agreeing to read/write to each other. By Blasting events to each other. You have "relay networks" which are totally decentralized and stand alone You have "hybrid applications" which employ caching to aggregate data from relays And you have "social networks" which are unique in structure and dependent on user input What we don't have is trustless relay organization. And then we need a new Nostr for Blastr-enabled Nostr and this one can become testnet Nostr. Or inbox/outbox/gossip Nostr. Why aren't there already like 5 versions of Nostr? All models are valid, it's a question of application and incentive and structure. I am not sure how well I can format these concepts but I hope this comment is helpful in some way. I believe Nostr is attempting to do something that money cannot solve. Developers must break through to innovative ideas instead of relying on traditional fundamentals. We are in emergent territory. Light speed connectivity. There are new rules to be written. With that, I also want to suggest Graphstr, which would be "the beginning of Web of Trust or as I've taken to calling it, Web of Confidence". Graphstr would be a relay backend powered by Blazegraph with a Rust wrapper to communicate Nostr events across a decentralized protocol of Blazegraph relays. This would enable concept graphs to proliferate across a Nostr-enabled ecosystem, which could serve as a model for a future decentralized Web of Trust. Heck if I know. @Nice and Kind Vic I want Listr to become a protocol and not just a Nostr application.
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Tekkadan, ゲロゲロ! 🐸's avatar
Tekkadan, ゲロゲロ! 🐸 _@mycelium.social 1 year ago
Sorry, wrong note.
Tekkadan, ゲロゲロ! 🐸's avatar Tekkadan, ゲロゲロ! 🐸
Gm Vitor. I have been considering this for a very long time, of course how it relates to Nostr I have only been considering for the two years that I have been a part of the ecosystem. I see two problems that are very noticeable on Nostr. The first being a lack of "organized friend lists" and the second being a lack of "managed communities". Both of these properties are enhanced with a centralized database of course, while Nostr is enhanced with the emergent properties that are derived from the "all seeing relays" model encouraged by Blastr. I actually like the Blastr model if it is applied in a way that creates value and incentive structures. It's just that no one wants to host everyone's bloat notes (for free) if the cost is compounding upwards. Relays lose incentive. Instead of proliferating, they become constrained. So what I suggest is a forking of Nostr. Our npubs can be shared across different forms of Nostr which can become frameworks for different network relationship models. In this way we can manage "Other Stuff" without being a slave to the kind 1 note and NIP-02 Follow List format. I think a fully "decentralized" Nostr would be a fully distributed Nostr. That means every user would have incentive to host their own relay. This makes sense if we can reduce the footprint of "Nostr A" to something microscopic. If Nostr's identity layer can proliferate to become a standard that is built into every home router, then we can maximize the proliferation of npubs. @Daniel Wigton suggests hosting data in clusters of friend groups. He wants friends to share encrypted data between themselves directly as a form of redundant personal security. I like this model and think it could also serve as a model for relays. Relays need to organize. In this way, we can maintain different frameworks for standardizations of data interoperability without being committed to any single organizational structure. The thought here is that I should be hosting my own personal relay to host my own notes. If I cannot, then I should be able to find a public relay which would likely make sense to be a decaying type of relay. Do we have relays that decay yet? I would love to publish to a relay that guarantees my note will decay in 1 year, for example. Then I have the authority as a user to determine how long I want to host a note, or how long someone else should host it. It can proliferate and be guided by social peers, but in the end I shouldn't be writing permanently to anywhere unless I want it to be there forever. Which is not everything I say, necessarily. And most of my "thoughts and celebrations and memes" don't really need to proliferate across the internet, so much as they need a home to exist upon until I decide to delete them. It makes sense to have small personal relays and it makes sense to have totally open relays. What doesn't make sense is confining ourselves to "one Nostr". Even if it is open, it is still constrained by its organization. The employment of Nostr is dependent on its structure. So, "relay organization" is not set in stone either. But at first we should have a simple Peer-to-Peer relay authority structure. A relay would either be open to everyone, or it would federate with a group of other relays. Because these federated relays would all be sharing the same goal, they would not be less decentralized than Nostr is now. Instead they would provide authority structure within this decentralized ecosystem. This would allow parent/child relay relationships. The point is that relays would communicate but they would only do so by grouping and agreeing to read/write to each other. By Blasting events to each other. You have "relay networks" which are totally decentralized and stand alone You have "hybrid applications" which employ caching to aggregate data from relays And you have "social networks" which are unique in structure and dependent on user input What we don't have is trustless relay organization. And then we need a new Nostr for Blastr-enabled Nostr and this one can become testnet Nostr. Or inbox/outbox/gossip Nostr. Why aren't there already like 5 versions of Nostr? All models are valid, it's a question of application and incentive and structure. I am not sure how well I can format these concepts but I hope this comment is helpful in some way. I believe Nostr is attempting to do something that money cannot solve. Developers must break through to innovative ideas instead of relying on traditional fundamentals. We are in emergent territory. Light speed connectivity. There are new rules to be written. With that, I also want to suggest Graphstr, which would be "the beginning of Web of Trust or as I've taken to calling it, Web of Confidence". Graphstr would be a relay backend powered by Blazegraph with a Rust wrapper to communicate Nostr events across a decentralized protocol of Blazegraph relays. This would enable concept graphs to proliferate across a Nostr-enabled ecosystem, which could serve as a model for a future decentralized Web of Trust. Heck if I know. @Nice and Kind Vic I want Listr to become a protocol and not just a Nostr application.
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