It’s a bad faith argument, not inherently a real checkmate, just one that maybe you weren’t prepared to counter. Instead, you could try a checkmate focusing on why any intervention into free markets is inherently destructive, such as: Socialism is not flawed because of incentives, but because of calculation. The reason why socialism fails, despite how much computing power or information the State has, is that without property, there’s no cost. No cost, no economic calculation. No calculation, no production.

it's about reducing state overreach. Obvisoulsy communism is the worse, capitalism is essentially corruption of the state by the private sector, then bitcoin offer to split monetary policy from the state. Nothing's perfect, but bitcoin certainly offer the biggest improvement right now

It is two times a fair argument. We need to ask ourself the following: Is my goal when discussing to win the upper hand with the argument I enter? Or is it my goal to exchange ideas and leave the discussion smarter?

Ok, I'll bite. What would real communism look like? Best case scenario.

The difference is capitalism is an emergent economic reality that occurs organically. Yes, it gets co-opted and handicapped by grifters and warlords every time, but it’s real. It has objective properties and leads to demonstrably better outcomes for its participants despite being parasitized to varying levels where it happens. “Communism” as Marx wrote about it was purely philosophical theory that has no basis in reality. It’s a total fiction, has never arisen organically, and cannot be created in the thresher of reality. No matter how hard any group tries, it’s never going to exist. So pointing to something that is real and tangible and saying it could be better if it wasn’t so parasitized (demonstrable) is not even close to a leftist saying something totally made up never happened. Of course the USSR wasn’t “real” communism”, real communism is as real as JRR Tolkien’s fantasy world in the Lord of the Rings or any other fiction scrawled on papyrus.

Maby to be clear right away. I would not consider myself a Marxist. But defnitly progressiv, pro human rights, libertarian, antifascist, anarchist, individual freedom advocate. But I read and listen information of all kind. So I did start reading "das Kapital" of Karl Marx. And I think he has seen and written about problems that came up with the industrialisation. He has seen workers, that worked in insecure facilities for many hours in order to get their pay. And since those jobs were so easy to replace, fabric owners did care little about workers savety. And it does not help much, when the worker gains much, but when he gets into an accident the whole family falls into poverty. So Marx urged for the need of institutions, that ensure workers security, fair pay, so they can sustain themselfs and their families. Therefore he could see, that syndicates of united workers will may have the power to meaningfully negiciate about fair pay, lower working hours, insurance for risky work and so on. Since alo poor labor workers have human dignity. They have a right to work in environments they feel save too. And they are participants in the way towards profits of those companies. So they should get their fair share of those profits too. In the Book I have read Marx wrote mostly about the evaluation of the value of work. I hope this text of mine can be of value to you. Otherwise Might can be a good thing to read a book of Marx or whatever medium you like to learn about his work. Best regards

I've studied it in order to understand why communism is so appealing to some. Over the years I've tried to reason with communists but with little luck on my behalf. What can I say, thank God bitcoin exists. It made my life much better and the debate it's pretty much settled as far as I'm concerned. Do you think you can have something for nothing?

Didi you never got things offered without something from your side? When you have an accident on the street, people only help you up for a bonus? When your mom was caring you as a baby, did she put you in dept for every kindness? Do people ask for money after they smiled at you? Althruistic action is something so deeply human, I would be surprised, when you pass a complete day without seeing an altruistic action. But I do not expect altruism. I receive it happily and try to practice myself in thankfullness. So I remember to do altruistic actions more often myself.

The key word is 'voluntary'. I draw the line at confiscation. Do you think people should own property in your scenario?

I totally agree with the idea of property rights and voluntary action. Meanwhile I am in favor of everyone having access to minimal standards like food, drink and a house to live. Clearly with consent. But I am quiet strongly suggesting that we as a society support those in need with shelter, food and education, when they do not have the energy to acchiev all of those things by themself. Since when those basics are offered, people get the opportunity to grow and eventually gain independence. When those basic needs are not met, criminals are produced by society. No coincidential, but it is part of a society that does not care about those without property.

Those basic needs cost resources. Somebody has to pay/provide them. At small scale it can be done by local communities. Scaling is a big issue tho. The welfare state had a century to show results and it hasn't. It's just another way to steal resources by a handful of people. This is my main beef with communism. Everything the state has is due to confiscation and theft.

Actually Denmark, Norway or Finland accomplish high education level throughout society. And there are good studies showing that a overall better educated society with eaqual opportunities deliver a resilient strong economy. I would count those countries good example on how countries that deliver good opportunities to all people living in the country can deliver persistant growth. Meanwhile there is a good record on that an economy where rich people accumulate all the wealth while the middleclass is empoverished, the over all economic power shrinks. And this is happening in countries, which almost do not tax very rich people and companies.

Fair point. I'll have to see for myself. I haven't visited Scandinavia yet. What about Sweden? Do they make the cut?

Walker and Allen go over this exact exchange and how to respond to it here, starting 55:20. https://fountain.fm/episode/0cJFT43kjmE2jXFi4WuD