so many bitcoiners here, and i still see hardly anyone acknowledge that micro payments with lightning or cashu, for relays and apps is the ONLY GOOD WAY TO COMBAT SPAM AND MIND CAPTURE
sad
sad.
pathetic really.
gfy
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The @npub16lvp...7j3k team acknowledges this. @Shortfiat even wrote a whole book about this: 
Fanfares
Digital Sovereignty
8,000 sats - The book that fixes the internet ⚡
exposing users to micropayments from the beginning, is essential.
clients like bitchat
clients that pretend everything is free
it's all gonna end up in the same old toilet.
im glad to hear that fanfares is thinking differently.
Ribbit is back under development and basically looks fucking clean as hell now and is about to start performing with ideally a blend of "full outbox" and extended relays-as-communities
🐸 Nothing left to stand in our way
Do any relays even use micropayments? Onky paid relay i kniwnof has like a subscription fee
nostr21.com is 21 sats a month. is that micro enough? the thing is, clients like bitchat are just leechers. they dont even bother to help send a message to their users, or they could be spam free and not such a doomed idea. they publish a list of 'open relays' that will quickly grow tired of hosting their stuff.
i like some outbox, but free inboxes are doomed
Oh lit, didnt know that. I guess if i had and easy way to just view from that relay specifically that i would pay. Is there a client with that view?
Added it on amethyst, lets see if it charges me
Jumble
A user-friendly Nostr client for exploring relay feeds
amethyst has no way for me to accept payments, the only way is via the landing page.. its the best we can really do, because like i was saying, they just dont think about this stuff, at all.
although, amethyst is the only client that gave it a little bit of a try, still, much to be done.
Amethyst requested payments from me for another relay onece.
But apparently i am already a member and didn't know?
ah, yeah its a hybrid payments relay, i must have already added you then
t Y*
?
just app. the sharing/still balancing IT
Uh what
weighing pros & cons for future set up, +/- list so to say
You must be high or i am retarded bc i have no idea what youre saying.
I'll auth inboxes if no one else will 🤷 idgaf
i'm not high - tradeoffs with different apps in sharED info, you au9913 & cloud fodder
t Y was meant as thank You
NIP-11 includes "payment_required" limitation, so it should be quite easy to highlight that.
But, redirecting to the landing page is the only way to expose the payment flow.
If you're not paying for it, then you're the product!
Keychat uses Bitcoin ecash as stamps and Nostr relays as post offices.
Senders send messages stamped with Bitcoin ecash to Nostr relays. The Nostr relays collect the Bitcoin ecash, then deliver messages to receivers.
It's a hard one, professional spammers can always out micro-spend regular users, just as they can out proof-of-work them.
They all earn from their spam, let's not forget. It's an industry. And a pretty lucrative one at that. So they'll always appear when the impression base is big enough, and they'll happily pay to play.
I don't get how lucrative spam is to be honest in this context.
Most spam is an entry point to some kind of either scam business or business business, not this just-for-fun semi-colon spam on bitchat. The ROI is pretty high. If you look at your spam inbox in gmail or whatever, that's what most of it is. These spammers will pay a lot to third party services to get into your proper gmail inbox, and sometimes that works.
On Farcaster, the $7 fee to create an account didn't stop the spam at all, in fact it accelerated it. Spammers were happy to pay that $7 to access a cohort of people with money on a network with native payments. So Farcaster had to deploy centralised spam-mitigation tools on top, which they can do since they control the one big client.
There's also just the advertising aspect to it, spamming becomes a pay per impression play just like any ad network. Or spammers taking money from people that don't like you to bring you down.
Nostr hasn't seem much professional spamming yet because the impression pool is way too small, just a little phishing here and there.
Okay I won’t complain about subscription fatigue because it’s only 21sats ffs.
But still a little annoying we can’t arrange/pay/automate such payments from any nostr client I’m aware of.
Also it’s not letting me in 😭
not true that professional spammers are not here. plenty of state actors and entities who's goal is to chase people off nostr. just because you have not seen it does not mean it is not being nefariously deployed at scale, there have been plenty of churn just due to spam (ie. it is working and we are not).
they have to outspend yes, because if the moderation team is active they have to pay per pubkey, and normal users pay for just one pubkey. it is far superior to simple POW which does not work.
I'll buy that, it just doesn't seem to me like the kind of forever spam that sets in once the economics are right, more like "campaign based" spam of a sort.
when spam happens, the mod team just starts kicking them off, and if the payment is too low it can be dynamically adjusted until the spammer cannot afford it. ie, if the payment for a user was 7000 sats, then a spammer would have to pay 7000 sats per message. users that already signed up are unaffected. this is a game they cannot win, but only if we can find ways to expose it to the users because otherwise they won't sign up at all, get spammed, and then leave nostr.
I agree about the subscription fatigue. If there was a place to paste a renewable NWC connection string would you use it for a relay? I see coinos can support this.. I may attempt to implement this in the future, though it still depends on the friction of the users having to sign into, or paste their pubkey into my client to manage their subscription, they're viewing from another client and have no interest in that nor are even shown the landing page or etc.
What is the problem you're having? Is the payment not working?
The serious scammers might even welcome that amount, it'd keep their low-level competition away and they'd figure out some way to game it.
But even so, that'd be crippling for growth. It's just very hard to get Sats for most people. I suspect many Nostr regulars have had Sats for so long they've lost touch with how hard it is for a regular person in many countries to get 7,000 sats. Or even 1 sat. And if the price for keeping out spammers via this means is zero growth then it's not worth it.
Yes payments may be hard for people to make, but it is very important part of granting access if a user wishes to onboard quickly, in addition, with a hybrid relay that also allows in any source from a Web of Access (a nip05 whitelist, a score calculation, a payment), any of which can be used so there are options. It is not just a blanked, you must pay. The spam must be deterred somehow. So if a user is willing to spend the time to build their reputation in the spam ridden world of everything is free, eventually they will make it in without having to pay if they have garnered enough of a score. Or use the zaps from the engagement they've gotten to level up quicker.
There are many options, but ignoring payments as an option and trumpeting that it's bad for new users, is naive and will end up hurting us in the end. We will be exactly like any other social platform and even more full of spam because all the other platforms also charge now and are still full of spam.
Yeah it would be good to have some sort of standard so clients could show payment options from within their interface.
I am not very found of NWC into relays because of the not so subtle “commitment” to a specific set of relays.
If we think about nostr as a p2p protocol (because permissionless npubs and such), relays should be “mere concierges”, so maybe the client should arrange relay payments in the background for the user instead (you already have a wallet setup for sending zaps after all).
As for nostr21, I had some heisenbugs but the payment went through. Turns out it was showing me the wrong relay url in some places of the UI: wss://nostr21.nostr21.com instead of just wss://nostr21.com.
ah, yes, i need to fix the url, whoops.
i agree, the nwc seems a bit hard to implement and to use. and im hesitant to spend so much time on an implementation if it wont be used.
albyhub has zap planner, which lets you schedule lightning payments using an NWC string to lightning addresses at specific intervals. It also ha a field to put the recipient so I suppose one could put their npub, then the receiver would know the sub is paid.
this is not client integrated which would be ideal, but seems like a tool client and relay devs could utilize for the function.