Replies (56)
π― Canβt come soon enough in Aus
As always, it depends on many factors. A few things I find noteworthy:
- Assuming you financed with a fixed rate: rent would go up while credit costs remain stable. Good for your cash flow in the long run.
- If played well, real estate can be a way to finance further bitcoin purchases. Good for your bitcoin stack.
- Quality of life is much higher when you own the place you live. Good for your productivity.
Having a little property in the port doesn't hurt just in case BTC has an unforeseen problem in the future. Deffo more heavy BTC mind you.
We are also an asset, so it becomes important to be able to vote with your feet and move if the environment you are in is too expensive for your needs and/or unhealthy for your growth. I think we see this benefit in remote workers.
While Bitcoin is best for saving, Saving itself comes with the question "saving for what exactly?"
For many people the answer to that question is a home/land.
The other aspect is, if war comes to your province, you can flee without the physical property binding you to your land and potentially costing your life.
Plenty of people have tried in vain to defend their castle.
I know of only 1 or 2 families that rent after selling their properties. 4 years to realise annualised btc gains sounds too painful right now.
Also, the spouse must also be a bitcoiner, imagine coming home from work in a sustained bear market every day lol
You need to own your house that your family has their HOME. There is no bigger blessing than having your healthy family in their own home.
bitcoin will not "demonetize" housing. literally nobody is making that prediction.
like bitcoin, housing has value. and the whole point oc renting is indeed flexibility--in a free market, the lessor and lessee both benefit from the agreement. the lessee pays a premium for the convenience of less risk.
you don't actually own your home most places these days
Weβre moving towards a future where rentals will be the norm.
Partly because it is a more efficient form of living partly because the gig economy will need to have people mobile.
In terms of efficiency it is clear that a property owner will have better pricing for consumables as well as better incentives to maintain the building. Downside of this is that itβll be easier to centralize control over a number of owner, from the authorities pov.
Tenants will then choose the best choice for them and will have the freedom to afford a summer house, for example.
Landlord will then decide whether he needs to focus on profits or service quality, based on his or hers conditions.
Tenants skip the stress to owning and maintaining a property which has become almost a part time job, full time in some cases.
Canβt wait for this to come aboutπ
if you own property, you can still flee lol
what kind of boxed-in thinking is this?
lol wut? no you don't. but I'm just a former mortgage brokerage owner, what do I know.
well said
Agreed that rental property investment is usually terrible once you factor in all the time and expenses.
Yet I'm skeptical of Bitcoin demonetising houses in the near term. Most people I know buy the best house they can afford at the market price. It's not an active decision to "use it as a savings vehicle". Bulk of house price dynamics are surely driven by demand by residents (who will also pay rent, and hence help maintain revenue streams for landlords), and supply in a city (driven by building regulations and land availability etc.)?
Housing is a utility and a liability. Itβs not an asset and the fiat debt system is designed to pull forward instant gratification of ownership. With a low time preference, renting and stacking sats is way better path!
I've been thinking about this a lot!
yes
Under a Bitcoin standard it'd be hard for governments to finance wars
Soon it will be median house price (in Sats)
Would rather own a home than rent. Who wants to deal with the specter of rising rents and dealing with a landlord?
Try not paying your taxes. You donβt own your home. You rent it from the state.
YES
#YESTR
I would way rather rent and take a loan to buy Bitcoin, instead of buying a home and trying to Hodl..
But to each their own.
If you're handy, I could understand owning a home you can fix up might seem the better choice.
Paying a mortgage is cheaper than paying rent in an equivalent house here and I can draw on the equity to buy bitcoin.
True, but let's say you own a house, what's stopping you from leaving? In my experience, not as much as people tend to think.
Could be saving for uncertainty in the future, career and learning opportunities for the kids, could be business opportunities in future.
Of course housing is one of those things, but the point here is more like: wait until it's a very small fraction of your stack to do it, and view it more like 'consumption' or a lifestyle purchase at that time. Not as an investment.
Exactly this! As someone who doesn't currently own and would need to purchase a home, just renting while Bitcoin continues to grow at 60% a year or so (baseline is 46% growth as measured in dollars), is much more desirable than sticking that money into a depreciating asset like a home.
Yes, I said depreciating. Since 1960 homes have dropped from 340 Oz of Gold to only 153 Oz today. Median home prices fall in Gold terms 1.2% a year.
The only reason homes are considered appreciating is because they drop in value significantly slower than the dollar and this grow in nominal dollar terms at nearly the same rate as debasement, which is much more than most people's pay increases.
If you have a landlord that actually takes care of maintenance...
Property as an investment is probably a bad idea, but thinking your landlord is going to maintain your home properly seems like a pipe dream. Landlords suck. They're unresponsive, unwilling to spend even on repair let alone improvement. Plus they're nosey, always coming around inspecting and placing rules on what you can do. Want a dog? Gotta get the landlords permission I'm afraid. Want to build an extension? Gotta get the landlord's permission I'm afraid. Want to repaint or improve the insulation? Gotta wait til the landlord will pay, if they'll do it at all.
Landlords suck.
we happy
Thought experiment: what would happen if the majority of landlords require rent in Bitcoin?
In the US the consequence would be either 1) have insufficient renters; or 2) being sued to death. That said, slowly encouraging folks to volunteer payment in bitcoin through a partnership with nostr:nprofile1qy2hwumn8ghj7etyv4hzumn0wd68ytnvv9hxgqg4waehxw309ajkgetw9ehx7um5wghxcctwvsqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsqs6amnwvaz7tmwdaejumr0dsq3qamnwvaz7tmwdaehgu3wwa5kuegpzpmhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejsz9rhwden5te0wfjkccte9ejxzmt4wvhxjmcpz3mhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuerpd46hxtnfduqzpjdak6fvau05qvekhelq570cgdhxl0pjtgxjap6xcjmngg35ufaynl4wv2 could get the ball rolling.
Itβs difficult to predict the future but worth thinking these things through.
Thank you, John.
Absolutely, it's actually part of my fiat job is thinking about exactly these things. I would love to see some entrepreneurial landlords figure out a way to profit off orange pilling normal people just trying to live their lives. Win Win...WIN
Imagine a clause in a tenancy agreement along the lines of the monthly rental dropping as the purchasing power of satoshis goes up!
It would be interesting particularly where some renters pre-pay. You wouldn't want to discourage your renters from doing so because more money now is good. There would be really interseting dynamics in commercial long-term leases where collaborative multi-sign joint ownership of bitcoin collateral would go a long way to help renters deal with the consequences of a downturn in business and not being ejected if they can't make rent for a month or two.
That's as bad as saying bitcoin is a ponzi.
Even so, this is the difference between earning revenue in bitcoin vs holding bitcoin on your balance sheet.
One is on your income statement, the other is a balance sheet asset.
What instant gratification? Real estate is low time preference. All these bitcoiners who never been in re sound as bad as all the no coiners talking about bitcoin.
Agreed. Sats flow is a different game than cash flow. A landlord asking for rent denominated in bitcoin has to build in appreciation or theyβre going to lose tenants every few months.
Very few businesses can accurately price (nontrivial) recurring payments in bitcoin at the levels of adoption weβre at now.
You own more of it than the one you rent.
Buying a house to become a homeowner is an instant gratifying decision as the mortgage takes 30 years to pay off so itβs pulling forward the ownership. Itβs a liability and not an asset. Rentals are different since that actually generates cash flows but Iβm not interested in effectively an LBO when I can get 45% CAGR without property management headache
Rent will go up, so will property tax, insurance, maintenance, management etc.(this is mostly why rent goes up). It's good for building wealth, not income. Only once you've paid off the mortgages or if you have many, many properties, will you realize "income".
How long does renting take to pay off? You are right, I don't find renting gratifying.
This is so retarded. I am no fan of taxes, but if there are not taxes there can be no inheritance. Pick one. I am fine with no taxes, but than your children cannot inherit your assets. It is a finite world you cannot own a piece of it in perpetuity.
Yes, everything will go up. That includes the cost of the asset itself and the cost of borrowing money (credit). These are the biggest chunks and the ones you can keep stable, effectively detaching them from inflation (itβs tricky though).
Anyway, all these costs are passed on to the renter. Renting therefor is more expensive than owning in the long run. Itβs simple: if it isnβt lucrative it wouldnβt be down. To be lucrative the additional costs need to be passed on, regardless of which type of cost this is.
Buying a home doesn't improve cash flow on the income side, but on the cost side of the equation, if done right.
Inheritance is not owning a piece of the world in perpetuity. Itβs passing it on to someone else of your choice.
it is ridiculous concept that you can own a piece of the earth, once this became a decree it caused a whole host of positive and negative consequences. This is the situation we are in. There is no such thing as ultimate freedom, there is only responsibility and the privileges that responsibility affords you.
if you avoid over-leveraging yourself by liquidating hundreds of thousands of dollars in sats at this point in history you're just a retard and bad at math.
You're less likely to flee, or you will flee later, when it may be too late.
Example:
Russian tanks on the border of Ukraine = flee
Saving has a goal, speculation has a prediction.
Assuming one's bitcoin will appreciate to the point that spending it would be negligible is pure speculation.
HODL on ππͺ
Why would anyone in their right mind put an extension someone else's house?
Makes sense. But I prefer and love the freedom of owning the place I live in.
Well exactly, if you want to be able to add an extension then renting isn't gonna work. Best not have a baby or whatever.
