Wikifreedia 0.0.9 has been released
By the mighty craftsmanship of @fiatjaf, who I hear should be glamorized, as well as his ideas, this version drops Markdown in favour of Asciidoc.
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Both wikifreedia.xyz and wikifreedia.vercel.app still are on 0.0.8 - and that's good. This change would break thousands of already existing pages, and that's not a good thing!
no, I just didn't update the header, but it's on 0.0.9
markdown renders well in the asciidoc renderer, so it's backwards compatible
Do we have test pages for both?
Actually, Markdown pages don't render correctly, I need to convert them. I just looked at my own wiki pages.
Also, NIP-54 isn't even changed yet. Why do we even have NIPs if people are doing what they want anyway?
interesting, is asciidoc better than markdown for a wiki?
why not wikitext??
Asciidoc might be better but there are no libraries
And yet we all have to convert our wiki pages to asciidoc, which isn't even in NIP-54 yet.
Why asciidoc over markdown?
😆
Merging PRs into the NIPs requires implementations.
There’s a PR with the switch that’s been waiting for two months for implementations to be able to merge
The NIPs repo is DESCRIPTIVE.
Can you give me an example?
Thanks, now it makes more sense
I'm an Asciidoc maximalist. Fiatjaf converted me.
#fangirlmoment
#markupcrush
Use * instead of - for lists
The Great AsciiDoc migration continues.
What features specifically were you missing with MarkDown ?
I still don't get it.
Universal formatting rules and universal programmability. Universal options for Nostr-specific formatting, as well, through a common library.
We want to do more advanced publishing, including diagrams, style sheets, tables, formulas and graphs, newspapers and magazines, scientific journals, eBooks, etc. This stuff needs to work the same on every client, and be exportable to ePub, LaTeX, and etc. in a predictable way, or it'll be a formatting shitshow.
Our 30041 events will also be Asciidoc.
It's already going to be a nightmare including long-form articles in 30040s because they will be formatted in different markdown flavors. 😬
🥳
Now all of wikifreedia can be exported as manpages 😆👍
ok.
well dammit, im reading the asciidoctor’s recommended practices for using asciidoc, and it’s kinda great. 🤷
1. For Zines, you're going to need something like Hypernotes (think Interactive PDF's) anyway: View article →
2. Diagrams, Graphs and advanced Tables are a b*tch when it comes to displaying them properly on mobile. Creators already hate it when they don't have the guarantee of proper display on the same platform, just imagine this across XXXX different apps.
3. If you're going for universality through a common library anyway, you might as well just go for Nostr flavored MarkDown: View article →
4. I'm making things like app and music album descriptions be wikis behind the hood, so that original publishers are filling in our great encyclopedia as a byproduct 💪 . Asciidoc complicates that.
5. There are a lot of WIki- and Nostr-specific things to standardize to make them usable, so you'll be flavoring all over AsciiDoc instead. Examples: a "quick facts" section for wikis, Nostr event embeds, zettels, ...
Markdown is completely variable and implementations are incompatible at source. We could end up with 15 Nostr markdowns that can't be interchanged. They aren't plug-n-play.
Yeah, I was originally like WTF @fiatjaf ?!!
And then I was like... Ooooh. 👀
Yeah, a couple of years ago I started writing a book; immediate reached out for Markdown and within a couple of days I had migrated everything to Asciidoc
I am going asciidoc crazy right now.
😆
Yeah, I also was hitting the markup ceiling really fast, just with a few wiki pages.
So Asciidoc is mostly a fresh start + some more default features. Ok.
You guys seem to be clearly going for this.
So I'll stop arguing against and start arguing for making everything Asciidoc instead.
You cannot have Articles, Descriptions, etc be MD now. You either have a Standard or you don't.
Next, how do I write Asciidoc in Obsidian? Or anywhere else offline on desktop + mobile?
Asciidoc actually handles some basic markdown, like headers, code, and bullets.
Use Asciidoctor.
That's already the markdown-flavor issue. Some accept -, some prefer *, some allow for both. 🙄
And the “ventilated prose” thing from Buckminster Fuller in the asciidoc documentation made me flip a biscuit. I write in that weird way already, and i just learned it’s a thing. 🤷🕺🪩
Only just got used to MD and Obsidian, damn.
Adapt or die 😂
Well if it’s any consolation, I literally did just that not 5 minutes before I read the note about asciidoc. 😆
Now I’m back in OpenBSD where Obsidian is unavailable, trying to set up a new system with asciidoc.
🤷
Hahah 🫂
Same. 😂 Installed Obsidian a couple months ago.
No, it's not better than markdown for anything that expects a global user base. It's too English-centric to be better for anything but an English-centric user base. Markdown has no English-centric features, it works equally for people with all the common language backgrounds and keyboard layouts worldwide
Here's another example, the first one of my articles I've checked
I wonder how many of my 273+ entries would actually show up correctly
English-centricity is your solution to markdown flavor issues? 🙄
Because wikitext would enable faster progress in the development of a decentralized wiki and nostr devs are here to divert progress, not enable it
I have also made it clear I will not be converting to asciidoc and will be submitting articles using either markdown or wikitext and waiting for clients to display them correctly instead of pussyfooting around with this bullshit
I guarantee if you fools keep using asciidoc you will end up making your own flavor of it with shit that isn't part of the core standard but ok, you do you
Please don't convert. Others should instead join me in ignoring this bullshit and waiting for clients to get good at displaying articles
I thought the point of the post you're replying to was that if the first devs on the standard just do whatever they want instead of adhering to the standard then that's not good for decentralization which requires growth with more devs being able to join in freely
It's straight up disingenuous of you to pretend you can't imagine fixing this with non-English-centric markdown standardization instead of asciidoc
This is a protocol
what do you mean? why is asciidoc English-centric?
It straight-up uses English instead of arbitrary character coding for certain functionality
I agree with you and that's a negative with Asciidoc, but it uses it just for fringe features that are unnecessary most of the times and also that are completely missing in Markdown, so you can easily ignore them and this is no reason for you to be angry at Asciidoc. I wish Asciidoc was slightly simpler but nothing is perfect.
By the way, wikitext is also "English-centric" by that same criteria and you seem to like it.
* and _ and ` do, but yes, most of the other things don't. Titles are super easy to change from # to =, links also don't render correctly, but they look so much better in Asciidoc than in Markdown when you're reading the plaintext!
Are there THOUSANDS of existing wiki pages?
Markdown is a bless for patients of Tex PTSD
I've started writing Asciidoc whenever I can now instead of Markdown.
The Markdown evil regime has to end at some point.
Wikitext offers compatibility in exchange for the drawback, I keep saying
Wikitext is not parseable. I've posted a bunch of notes here maybe 2 months ago highlighting how absurdly horrible it is. There is no spec but even if there was one it would be unimplementable. There is only one parser: the one that powers Wikipedia, it's a mixmash of cursed PHP that is not portable. I don't know how you can think that is compatible with anything.
It's compatible with Wikipedia and most other wikis on the web.
Markdown is cool, but a NIP that just uses nostr to back up and synchronize articles across MediaWiki instances seems like it would be better than an asciidoc wiki platform that isn't cross-compatible
I can’t end the markdown empire. But I can banish it from my realm.
Oh yes, that looks totally broken.
Well, at least 1098 (says Wikifreedia itself on the start page).
And that's already enough.
We need much more NIP-54 wiki clients all abiding to *one* standard.
What I also have recommended on Github, keeping event kind 30818 Markdown and creating a new event kind for Asciidoc. But... well, we see the result now.
This is perfect. There could be another event kind for wikitext too if nobody gets around to finding another conversion method first. Everyone would be happy. @fiatjaf please consider
I wouldn't be against that if you want to do it, but it would be a completely different thing than NIP-54.
That's true. Hoping you'll end up doing something based on stl1988's more NIP-54 related suggestion too 🤙
View quoted note →
If we were to keep Markdown it would be better to keep it in the same event kind, from a coding perspective.
Makes sense to me