Niel Liesmons's avatar
Niel Liesmons 4 months ago
1) Polycarp and Ignatius can only have been taught by John if you place *that* John (it's not clear which one they are even talking about btw) around 90ad, and not around 70ad, as I do (given the timeline that actually makes sense with Jesus imminent return at that time; in that generation). 2) Both the sons of God and this satan are human here. Nothing in the Hebrew makes it spiritual. The same phrasing is used for (god-serving) humans several times. 3) In Luke 10 Jesus is employing a literary device when he says he saw the enemy fall from the sky like lightning. The verb “see” is theoreo which means to perceive, to discern, to view mentally, to see as in a vision. Similarto the imagery John gives us in his vision he “saw”. So Jesus had a vision of the enemies of God falling from their high position, the heavens or sky, and were brought down to earth or made low. “Heavens and Earth” was an idiomatic Greek expression used to describe those in power religiously and politically (the heavens) and the common people they ruled over (the earth). So many of these Hebrew idiomatic expressions have been improperly translated, either in ignorance or intentionally. 4) It does not clearly have three characters. If it would than the serpent it somehow just magically disappearing and shwoing up all the time. Also (angel of) God never adresses that suppsosed third character. Also, how would that character even know what God told Adam? Was he magically there too? Saying Satan is a real evil entity is giving him powers equal to Gods, while also moving us into victimhood instead of self-responsibility over **our own** sin. There's no Satan/Lucifer/Azazel/... with his army of fallen angels and demons attacking you 24/7, knowing everything about everyone. 5) I believe we have what we need in the Bible.
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The Beave's avatar
The Beave TheBeave@GitCitadel.com 4 months ago
1. The 70/90 AD thing is not something I am very well read on. I do believe that you are being influenced by those that hold to the notion that we are in "the little season" of deception. Again, I disagree with this as I think the preponderance of evidence goes against this, but I am not an expert on this. 2. Nope. Straight up just no. I would very much like you to expand on where you see the same phrase being used for God-serving humans, as I do not think this is at all correct. 3. I agree that the idiomatic expressions can be improperly translated, but . . . You are ignoring the use of that particular word being related to describing God's sight, which is NOT lie our sight, in other parts of the NT. IIRC. Interpreting this as a metaphor and not a relation of fact also ignores the whole thread of rebellion in the OT. How do you reconcile this "vision as a metaphor" and being told that beings "fell" in the OT? Those are incompatible, and therefore I think that your interpretation is incorrect. 4. It does have three characters. Again, look up the "Serpent seed" postulation. The nkosh, a hebrew word used to mean 'shining one, snake/dragon/winged serpent, deciever' is used. You CANNOT conflate that with a non-entity. Why is magic involved? Spiritual beings can and do move differently than we do. Example: Jesus after his resurrection, as the living proof and pattern of things to come for the faithful. I do not think that you are correct in your next postulation, as God is clearly addressing the Serpent in His curse. Also, since you do not consider The Satan to be a Spritual Being, then of course you would not think that God is addressing the same being as He was in Genesis 3 (IIRC). Yes. That being was there, as explicitly stated in The Temptation of Eve. It's just right there, so I really don't know how you can't see that plainly. 5. No. Not powers equal to God's. That is a gnostic duality that is straight up stupid. You ARE being attacked, lied to, deceived, persecuted, etc, while STILL ALSO dealing with your own propensity to go your own way and walk on the broad path and not the straight any narrow. It is both. Do you not understand that from Job? There IS an army of rebellious spiritual beings, and there are demons (the disembodies spirits of the nephilim), and there are humans who actively worship the little g gods who have chosen to rule improperly. You are missing the enemies without and are only concerned with the enemy within. That blindness is just dumb, and it is certainly going to set you up for a fall. Look, I am really just an idiot, but I do try to examine all this stuff from many different perspectives, and I do hope that you can poke at these expressed beliefs a bit more. I know for sure that I am not 100% correct about all this, and I do hope that I've expressed clearly where I am not sure, but . . . some of the things that you've expressed are just clearly NOT biblical, not at all contextually accurate, and, quite frankly, dangerous for you to be ignorant of.
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